Patterning boards?

You don't need anything fancy, but I have effectively checked point of impact and pattern density with a simple piece of cardboard and a felt marker to make an aiming point. It's a mistake to make the target sheet too small, and surprising just how much a small pointing error or gun mounting error can shift the pattern impact. 4'x4' is about right. Repeating the shot at least 4-5 times with the same ammo, same hold, and same distance tells you something that a single shot does not. And I agree with all those who caution against shooting steel plate with steel shot. Don't.
 
Longwalker said:
You don't need anything fancy, but I have effectively checked point of impact and pattern density with a simple piece of cardboard and a felt marker to make an aiming point. It's a mistake to make the target sheet too small, and surprising just how much a small pointing error or gun mounting error can shift the pattern impact. 4'x4' is about right. Repeating the shot at least 4-5 times with the same ammo, same hold, and same distance tells you something that a single shot does not. And I agree with all those who caution against shooting steel plate with steel shot. Don't.
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So, you shoot the same 4x4 multiple times to get an accurate depiction of your spread?
 
Yes, you can do that, but I don't find it very useful. Shooting the same spot multiple times just tells you an average of your placement of the pattern on the target, and maximum outside spread. I think it's better to shoot at a fresh piece of paper/cardboard each time. That will tell you how consistent your patterns are, how consistent your hold is, and clear up some of the "mystery of misses".
 
Slowly gaining ground - maybe now on a "mission" - several years ago I came to have a ruined 60" circular saw blade from a saw mill - more or less tempered steel 1/4" thick. Do not ask how it came to be here - I suspect many rules got bruised and stretched. Has been in bush out back at least five years - I think I just came up with a use for it!! "Charge"....
 
Mazeofmystery said:
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Now im wondering about FPS drop off with steel, since I bought some "1550 fps" shot...
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Yeah - I do not have answer - but you are into the "marketing" stuff - must be good because of that speed. The "fps" at muzzle means not much, if the bird is at 30 yards away. To do a fair comparison, you need to know weight of steel pellet and its velocity at impact, and then weight of lead pellet and its velocity at same distance. Allows you to calculate momentum, or foot-pounds energy or whatever number that you think matters. And it matters for bird shooters likely from 15 yards out to 60 yards, although I believe standard choke percentages are calculated for 40 yards. I have taken and seen birds - grouse, ducks, geese - taken at all those ranges - had even seen some "sky busters" take geese much further, but beyond reasonable what they were attempting...
 
Potashminer said:
Yeah - I do not have answer - but you are into the "marketing" stuff - must be good because of that speed. The "fps" at muzzle means not much, if the bird is at 30 yards away. To do a fair comparison, you need to know weight of steel pellet and its velocity at impact, and then weight of lead pellet and its velocity at same distance. Allows you to calculate momentum, or foot-pounds energy or whatever number that you think matters. And it matters for bird shooters likely from 15 yards out to 60 yards, although I believe standard choke percentages are calculated for 40 yards. I have taken and seen birds - grouse, ducks, geese - taken at all those ranges - had even seen some "sky busters" take geese much further, but beyond reasonable what they were attempting...
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Oh i know haha. Still, faster at the muzzle SHOULD mean faster further out (when comparing apples to apples, steel to steel, etc), at least to 15-60 yards.
 
Mazeofmystery said:
Oh i know haha. Still, faster at the muzzle SHOULD mean faster further out (when comparing apples to apples, steel to steel, etc), at least to 15-60 yards.
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Physics does funny things - I am working about a couple Palma rifles. So Sierra 155 grain stay supersonic at 1000 yards, driven at 7.62 NATO speeds. So do 175 grain Sierra Match King (much lower muzzle velocity). But 168 Sierra Match Kings do not. All at presumably similar breech pressures, from same cases and barrels. 168 grain has higher muzzle velocity, but loses speed faster than the 175 grain's do. And so much design effort put into the Sierra #2165 155 PALMA bullets (the "new" ones), they fly as if they were much heavier. So, at least in that one example I am working through, higher initial muzzle velocity does NOT translate into higher velocity down range, with differing projectiles.

I re-read what you wrote - and I agree - a pellet that is faster at the muzzle will be faster down range, than the same pellet that starts slower.
 
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Potashminer said:
Physics does funny things - I am working about a couple Palma rifles. So Sierra 155 grain stay supersonic at 1000 yards, driven at 7.62 NATO speeds. So do 175 grain Sierra Match King. But 168 Sierra Match Kings do not. All at presumably similar breech pressures, from same cases and barrels. 168 grain has higher muzzle velocity, but loses speed faster than the 175 grain's do. And so much design effort put into the Sierra #2165 155 PALMA bullets (the "new" ones), they fly as if they were much heavier. So, at least in that one example I am working through, higher initial muzzle velocity does NOT translate into higher velocity down range, with differing projectiles.
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Oh, what the heck? What variables do you believe to be causing that to happen? Surely it's something other than the grain???
 
Is discussed in the Sierra 5th printing of Edition V manual - term is "Ballistic Co-efficient" - once projectile has left barrel, about main force acting on it (all forces slow it down, none accelerate it) are drag. Sierra gives the B.C. values for many of their bullets in velocity ranges - so a bullet's ability to "fly" (how quickly it slows down) will change with the speed it is going at. Looking at the ballistics section, they do list that 168 grain Match King to 1000 yards, but only with a muzzle velocity of 3,200 fps from a 300 Win Mag. For the newest 155 grain Palma - they did subtle changes to angle of boat tail, etc. that gets the B.C. for that bullet to be higher in most of the velocity ranges than the previous version - and often higher than their 168 Match King.

But is fairly common to see if you study ballistic tables - say 30-06 - the 150 grain starts much faster - at 500 yards, the 180 grain (of the same bullet series) is going faster - is a function of which bullet "flies" better - the 180 did not "speed up" - it simply "slows down" much less than does the 150 grain. EDIT - I did not look that up, so range where 180 is faster might be 400 or 600 yards compared to the 150 grain - and I am referring to same bullet series - so an SST to an SST, or a Partition to a Partition, etc.
 
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Potashminer said:
Is discussed in the Sierra 5th printing of Edition V manual - term is "Ballistic Co-efficient" - once projectile has left barrel, about main force acting on it (all forces slow it down, none accelerate it) are drag. Sierra give the B.C. values for many of their bullets in velocity ranges - so a bullet's ability to "fly" will change with the speed it is going at. Looking at the ballistics section, they do list that 168 grain Match King to 1000 yards, but only with a muzzle velocity of 3,200 fps from a 300 Win Mag. For the newest 155 grain Palma - they did subtle changes to angle of boat tail, etc. that gets the B.C. for that bullet to be higher in most of the velocity ranges than the previous version - and often higher than their 168 Match King.

But is fairly common to see if you study ballistic tables - say 30-06 - the 150 grain starts much faster - at 500 yards, the 180 grain (of the same bullet series) is going faster - is a function of which bullet "flies" better - the 180 did not "speed up" - it simply "slows down" much less than does the 150 grain. EDIT - I did not look that up, so range where 180 is faster might be 400 or 600 yards compared to the 150 grain - and I am referring to same bullet series - so an SST to an SST, or a Partition to a Partition, etc.
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Well that definitely makes sense.

I have a lot of reading to do, so I'm gonna stop asking questions hahaha.
 
Mazeofmystery said:
I guess i'll have to do my own testing haha. I've been googling, and the general consesus is that lead spreads more with less penetration, while steel spreads less with more penetration. Annoyingly, im a number guy, so i either have to digitally dig more for percentage differences, or get some field data myself haha.
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For some reason, was thinking about the "spread" thing. Best that I could come up with is that steel shot is able to be made more round and true shaped, versus lead shot being more irregular shaped - at least as is loaded commercially. Wads that "protected" the shot from deforming along barrel wall likely helped both. I think much "premium" lead shot is/was often copper coated which likely had benefit of being more "rounder" than run-of-the-mill lead shot, but that is just a guess - I have no experience with it. The truer round stuff would likely fly in a tighter pattern - the irregular stuff might spread out more. And then likely depends on the hunt - grouse busting out of fully leafed out willow and poplars might be making a 25 yard shot into a very long one - so might want quicker spreading - both a function of the roundness of the shot and the choke on the barrel - but might want similar patterns out at 60 yards if pitted in for geese?

With switch from lead to steel shot, besides the change in shot size used, I think the chokes also changed for various distances.
 
Lead shot hardness from added Antimony resists deformation in initial setback, at ignition of the cartridge.
Less shot deformation gives better patterns.
Hardness is the important aspect of quality shot.
 
We have a steel grease plate at one club I belong to and another one has a steel plate that you can put a sheet of paper up to with magnets. The paper is pretty much mandatory if you want to count holes. As other have mentioned, steel shot on a steel targte is no good and the pellets will bounce back so for steel I put a piece of paper up on a barb wire fence and shoot it, nothing bounces back. Just make sure you point it into the wind so it doesn't blow away.
For counting holes, the best paper I've found is actually not paper but plastic. You can get big rolls of thin plastic sheeting used as disposabler table coverings at banquets, it's about 36 to 48 inches wide and and chunk of that cut off is the ultimate patterning paper becuase the holes don't tear out like some kinds of paper do and counting the holes is easy.
 
It's hard to imagine that steel shot would penetrate better than lead shot when lead weights more given the same size shot. Not only that but the lighter shot will slow faster resulting in even less penetration. Every rifle reloader knows that a heavier bullet in the same caliber will penetrate more than a lighter bullet of the same construction.
 
Falconflyer said:
It's hard to imagine that steel shot would penetrate better than lead shot when lead weights more given the same size shot. Not only that but the lighter shot will slow faster resulting in even less penetration. Every rifle reloader knows that a heavier bullet in the same caliber will penetrate more than a lighter bullet of the same construction.
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Yes - some balancing going on, for sure. If we used to take mallards with #4 or #5 lead, and now apparently use #2 or #3 steel - to get similar weight - pellets are much larger - would think there is more "resistance" to penetration for the larger diameter. But, pretty much a generation, now, with no experience at taking migratory birds with lead shot. It won't be coming back. In some decades from now, will be no one with experience with lead shot on ducks or geese, so that will likely be the end of it?? From what I am being told, steel does work "good enough".

Our son in his early 40's now. When he was 13 or so, I took him on a goose shoot before school - he was using his single shot 12 gauge with lead shot - so likely close to tail end of that era - about 1990 or so? I just looked it up - lead shot banned for migratory birds in Canada in 1999.
 
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