Bore condition

[Grantmac]

What does a pitted bore look like in a muzzleloader? I've found plenty of pictures of breach fired modern barrels but nothing specific to muzzleloaders.
I recently bought my first and it's producing marginal accuracy at best, maybe 4" at 50yds getting worse as it's shot. The area nearest the breach seems to get "sticky" to load and takes quite a lot to seat the ball after maybe 5 rounds. Wet then dry patch gets me another 2 rounds of fairly easy loading but the accuracy stays marginal.

I have yet to really experiment with ammo or load changes. Just using 50gr FFg goex, .490 and commercial 0.015 patches (micrometer at ~0.014) with water/dish soap lube on a local recommendation.

This is a trail walk gun so doesn't need perfect accuracy but I'd like to at least shoot into 2-3" regularly.

I put my automotive inspection camera down the barrel and the rifling seems to be pretty worn near the chamber with maybe some pitting but honestly I don't know what I'm looking at and the camera doesn't focus well to the sides. Should I pull the breach plug to take a better look?

Thanks,
Grant

 

[Potashminer]

Had a "friend" bring over a very ratty looking Thompson Center Omega in-line muzzle loader - had picked it up from someone who was going to "throw it away". Missing the breech plug. External "rust" was mostly dirt - cleaned up not bad, just with oil and very fine steel wool. One of the four nylon spacers beside trigger and hammer was deformed -as if someone prying in there - was only a function of dirt, I think - I turned new ones from brass and replaced - everything worked fine once cleaned. Bore looked bad from rear - multiple patches and scrubs - cleaned up not too bad except for about 3 or 4 inches ahead of the breech plug - bore scope showed definite pitting. So I doubt the original owner ever even tried to clean it, or did a very half-ways type job if he did. Sizing of the patch / projectile is definitely a "thing" - for these in-lines is often fired with plastic sabot - multiple sizes are available - humungous difference in trying to load up a second or third round. I read on Internet there is no industry standard for what size is a 50 caliber in-line muzzle bore - TC apparently usually on the small "tight" size compared to other makers - means choice of sabot is important...

It has been years since I hunted with one - I would think pulling that breech plug and thoroughly cleaning the bore would be a more or less annual event - do not think is necessary for daily cleaning, but do not really know what is in there, unless you look.

 

[gunsaholic]

What kind of muzzleloader is it? Pulling the breech plug might be a no-no depending on what it is.

 

[Grantmac]

It's an Italian made Hawken style 50, probably from the 70-80s. Overall condition looks pretty good and the bore looks more worn than pitted but that might just be how it looks in the camera.
The balls marked .490 (I'll put the micrometer on them tonight)
and patches measuring 0.014 load pretty tight but I'm going to experiment with lube. Also getting a tiny bit of occasional blowback so I may try a new nipple.
The rifling at the muzzle is crisp so maybe just lapping out the roughness at the breach end would make things work.

 

[Potashminer]

What kind of muzzleloader is it? Pulling the breech plug might be a no-no depending on what it is.

I had assumed all breech plugs were just threaded-in-place things - meant to be removed. Was or is a product called "Gorilla Grease" for lubing the threads when re-installed. Apparently that was not correct for all - what is different about breech plugs that should not be removed?

 

[Grantmac]

Opinions seem to vary as to whether you should avoid removing the plug or not. Also some just thread off and some have the nipple cone threaded in locking them in place. This one appears to be all one piece although there is a flat head screw running perpendicular to the bore just under the nipple.

I'll see about getting some pictures once I clean it after shooting tomorrow. I'm going to try a "dry" patch technique that has reported really good results in terms of minimal fouling and good accuracy. I'm going to just shoot at 25yds to give the greatest chance of a useable group. When I shot at that distance the first time it was a one-hole gun.

 

[mooncoon]

My first observation would be that you can feel a rough bore when you are cleaning it; the patch does not slide smoothly down the barrel. If you are convinced that it is rough, a tight patch on a bronze brush and dress it with valve grinding compound and run that up and down the bore a number of times. It removes very little metal but may take a rough edge off. You can also put a measure of corn meal on top of the powder and behind the ball; that has the effect of moving the patched ball closer to the better portion of the rifling. Having said all that, I would use a thicker patch ; up around 15 to 20 thou and a smaller ball to compensate. Finally, check your patches after shooting --- a rough bore or too thin a patch or both will leave holes in the patch. Almost forgot; the greasier the lube and the coarser the powder, the more fowling you will get. I use "moose milk" which is primarily a water soluble cutting oil and water for trail walks and usually available from local black powder suppliers

cheers mooncoon

 

[Grantmac]

Had another range day yesterday. Unsure if this gun just hates FFg or what but after 3 rounds I damn near couldn't get the bullet in using the short starter. This is with a "dry" patch system which others have reported shooting +20 without a wipe.
I think I was able to recover a patch (lots on the ground here) and it looked fine. I'm already using .490 balls and .485 isn't very common.
Since my bore is on the right side I could lap it and not be needing an excessive patch however.

 

[ryan]

Try wet patching for every shot. See what happens. Every gun is different.

 

[Potashminer]

Maybe does not help - still from my in-line days with sabots and Triple Seven pellets - a buddy showed me to run a wet patch in and out between each shot - it did make a difference for getting subsequent sabots to go in - to a point - so went from like impossible after about 3 shots to impossible after about 10 shots - still needed a good clean with brush scrubbing to get back to "okay" for first one. That was using the sabots that came with the rifle - much less fuss once I found some smaller diameter ones. Never shot it enough to know how accurate it and me were being - I was happy to be able to aim at and hit an 8" pie plate at 100 yards - all that I was looking for it to do, at the time.

My at-home "cleaning sessions" - after about 3 or 4 shots total, usually - I would unscrew the T/C breech plug and set unit horizontally in a padded vise - then full length strokes with brush (well wetted with bore solvent) out front and out rear. A wet (bore cleaning solvent) then a couple dry patches on a jag were "good enough", without pulling the breech plug, if I had only fired it once or twice. This "fussing", if it was necessary, really took the edge off my desire to use a muzzle loader. I no longer own one.

 

[Janeau]

Muzzleloader need also load development to get good accuracy. There is plenty of bullet style and weight to find a combinaison that work.
Same with powder - real black and substitutes. Same with powder charge.
Some pitting will not make much difference in accuracy, unless land and groove are gone and barrel crown is damaged.

My guess is your problem is with your load and choice of bullet weight.

 

[Potashminer]

A patched, round ball muzzle loader shooting black powder. Not just a ton of stuff to play with, I don't think? Brand and granulation of powder? OP does not mention cap lock or flint lock. Never had either one, but remembering a scene or two from a movie - no clue if this can be accurate or not, but I would try it - in movie "Last of Mohicans", I think, the character Hawkeye was going to shoot to protect runners sent from a surrounded fort - they wanted silk patches - had to approach a young lady to sacrifice a petticoat - was apparently to give Hawkeye another 50 yards range with his patched ball rifles. So, as per above, suggestion was to try thicker patch with smaller diameter ball - if it was me, I would also try same size ball as currently using, and something like "silk" (not synthetic, thinner than linen that was commonly used then).

 

[Grantmac]

Patched round ball in a cap lock. Already using the smaller of the two common balls for this caliber. Patches on the thin side as well.
Think I'll try wet patching again.
I'd be happy with 3" at 50 which seems very achievable for most guys.

 

[infideleggwelder]

Had another range day yesterday. Unsure if this gun just hates FFg or what but after 3 rounds I damn near couldn't get the bullet in using the short starter. This is with a "dry" patch system which others have reported shooting +20 without a wipe.
I think I was able to recover a patch (lots on the ground here) and it looked fine. I'm already using .490 balls and .485 isn't very common.
Since my bore is on the right side I could lap it and not be needing an excessive patch however.

I use a “dry patch system” almost exclusively, but it is definately required to wipe between shots. Those using a dry patch and claiming 20 shots between wiping might be shooting shot from a smooth bore. I can get three from my .32 and maybe 2 from my .50 without wiping. My .45 has a trashed barrel down at the breech, needs a wipe every shot, but is very accurate with 2-3 inch groups at 100.

 

[saskgunowner101]

Seems to me that this is exactly where you need to start. I've tinkered with inlines and non standard loads, and they can be fussy just like smokeless rifles for preferences. At minimum (if you're lazy) a couple 3 shot groups each starting at 50 grains powder, bumping the charge 10 grains each time. If you don't see any difference, look in the mirror, not the barrel.

 

[mooncoon]

Had another range day yesterday. Unsure if this gun just hates FFg or what but after 3 rounds I damn near couldn't get the bullet in using the short starter. This is with a "dry" patch system which others have reported shooting +20 without a wipe.
I think I was able to recover a patch (lots on the ground here) and it looked fine. I'm already using .490 balls and .485 isn't very common.
Since my bore is on the right side I could lap it and not be needing an excessive patch however.

I think you have two problems; switch to 3F and you will get less fouling and switch to a water based lube and wet patches. I normally get up to 20 before the loading becomes sticky near the bottom of the barrel. I shoot a .490 ball and a .015", occasionally .020" patch lubed with moosemilk. Also my short starter has a mallet shaped piece of moose horn for the striking end and the shaft is about 9" long. That gets the ball much farther down the barrel and the patch better sized into the rifling to make loading easier. You didn't mention how much powder you load --- I use 50 grains for most shots occasionally up that to 70 grains for shots around 100 - 120 yards. Larger powder charges give more fouling also. Finally I have a brass weight that screws onto the end of my ramrod if I have a hard time loading and that makes quite a difference. It is removeable and I only use it if I have a hard time seating the ball; the screw is #8 x 32 tpi and loktited into the weight. The weight is recessed about 1/2" to reduce side to side strain and then end closest to the ball is a bit smaller in diameter so that it does not get stuck in the excess patching

cheers mooncoon

 

[Grantmac]

I'm going to look for some 0.010 linen and see if I can find an accurate wet lube. I think I have some water soluble oil in the shop.
Also might try some scotchbright and polish to see about getting the bore into a better shape. There seems to be little negative side effects with it in the current shape.

Worst case it gets relined into a 45, I'm really just shooting steel in the woods and a 45 will do that fine.

 

[pacobillie]

My own experience: best lube is a 2:1 mix of mineral oil and bee's wax. Melt it in a pot at low heat, and pour it into a small jar. It will turn into a paste. Rub one side of the cotton patch in it before ramming it in. It will go in smoothly and also remove most of the fouling on the way down.

Ball size matters: some guns prefer a .495 patch, while others prefer a .480, or a .490" ball. So does patch thickness. My own TC Hawken preferred .495 balls, .018 patches, and 80 gr. Of Goex FFFg. It shot close to 2 MOA from a rest with open sights.

 

[nitro-express]

From your descriptions I'm thinking your bore may not be pristine, but it is probably not your problem. I have an old Gonic that has big chuncks of the bore rusted out, from the breach to the muzzle. It is bad. The former owner had issues with round balls getting stuck in the bore. The groove diameter on a Gonic are 0.500, so even a 0.490 ball is tight. He got mad at the gun and just put it in the closet after taking it apart. I cleaned it up as best as I could and took it hunting. Shot a nice eater buck.

Back to the issue: round balls are not the easiest to get to shoot. Barrel twist on most modern BP rifles is too fast to be optimum. Try a sabot bullet that fits the bore, and use about 90 gr (measure) of BP or substitute. Most rifles will shoot this fairly decently. Move up or down from there. A muzzle loader bore has to be pretty bad before it won't shoot with some accuracy.

Have fun. Load development can be an all day affair, repeated for a few days.

Hunting is usually from a clean rifle, try and duplicate that for every shot.

Nitro

 

[sean69]

I had assumed all breech plugs were just threaded-in-place things - meant to be removed. Was or is a product called "Gorilla Grease" for lubing the threads when re-installed. Apparently that was not correct for all - what is different about breech plugs that should not be removed?

Opinions seem to vary as to whether you should avoid removing the plug or not.

Yes.. a very touchy subject in some circles .. you will get advice ranging from "it's fine" to "your gonna blow up half the range" ... and people will get angry!!

So, breech plugs, yes are threaded so they can be removed in specific cases, but it should be avoided as the plugs are seated using a specific amount of torque so that the threads stretch (commonly known as bolt stretch) If you can remove the plug and torque it back up EXACTLY then you are fine - if not, you over torque it and stretch the threads past their point of being able to return to their original dimensions (some people will call this "wear" - it's not .. your threads are now deformed)

So the problem with removing a plug is that:

1. You have no way of knowing if it was correctly installed in the first place - or been messed with since. (probably not much of an issue for production guns, but custom guns.... no way to tell)
2. You (probably) have no idea what the material of the barrel and plug are - so no way of knowing what the correct torque is to reinstall.

So the rule of thumb is avoid it if you can - only removing the plug to clear an obstruction that can't be cleared by any other method.

I'm going to look for some 0.010 linen and see if I can find an accurate wet lube. I think I have some water soluble oil in the shop.

Linen has too loose a weave, go to fabric land with your calipers and a couple sample patches, look helpless until someone (generally some 60+ year old cat lady) takes pity on you and offers to help. Look for 100% natural (cotton) in the thicknesses you need (0.015-0.020) that is shiny on one side (like a suit) and has a TIGHT weave. buy that. (FYI - fabricland has crazy sales periodically - up to 80% off!)

- cut your patches from strips rather than using pre-cut - or cutting them yourself. (reason: if your pre-cut is a little off center you can get blow-by.. also your patch will be exactly the correct size - not guaranteed with store bought)
- I recently converted to bore butter .... I am very impressed... you can pre-lube your strips of cotton or smear a bit on and work it in while loading. (not too much - "damp" you should not have any lube around the muzzle after seating the ball.
- keep a square of (un-lubed) your patch material in your mouth when you shoot - Shoot - spitty patch - dry patch - reload...repeat.

Also might try some scotchbright and polish to see about getting the bore into a better shape. There seems to be little negative side effects with it in the current shape.

mmmm disagree ... barrel accuracy problems are going to be in the last foot or so of the bore or at the muzzle. Other than difficulty loading - I would not be concerned with the last 6 inches of breech end at all.
Dress/crown the muzzle....

Worst case it gets relined into a 45, I'm really just shooting steel in the woods and a 45 will do that fine.

IMO - bore it out to .54 will be cheaper and you will have a lighter gun.


So I'm sure you have been through it and has been mentioned, but accuracy with a muzzle loader:

- patch/powder/ball combinations .... you need to play with these a bit - you might try some 3F as well. Even temperature and humidity plays a part.
- caps matter.
- charging the gun leaves powder down the sides/in the rifling - a too-wet or over lubed patch will soak that up rather than pushing down onto the main charge - resulting in an inconsistent load.
- exact consistency in loads, and pressure seating the ball. You will find differences in seating the ball just on top of the powder and cramming the powder down into a hard little pellet!
- blowback ... weak mainspring, worn nipple, eroded channel (is this a patent breech or drum setup?) replace the nipple.


Finally - after all that writing ... what is the twist??? if you somehow have a fast twist barrel - go buy some conical bullets ...