Reduced 223 loads

rkaine

rkaine

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Location
Hamilton, Ontario
Hi - Just found the new Hodgon/IMR/winchester reloading data site, found the following loads - what do you think about them, are they worth giving a try for indoor, 50 yd shooting?

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Order BW Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

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55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Titegroup .224" 2.200" 3.1 1064 4,000 CUP
55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Clays .224" 2.200" 3.2 1060 3,700 CUP
 
Where can you shoot a .223 indoors near Hamilton? Look into a load with a cast bullet. Few ranges will let you shoot FMJ's of any kind indoors. They tend to pock the back stop.
 
wow thats interesting. less than a low pistol load to boot. I use titegroup for my 9mm and I use 4.2.... but I guess because your only pushing 55gr is going to work out.
but isnt it going to have a very harsh trajectory?
 
rkaine said:
Hi - Just found the new Hodgon/IMR/winchester reloading data site, found the following loads - what do you think about them, are they worth giving a try for indoor, 50 yd shooting?

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Order BW Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Titegroup .224" 2.200" 3.1 1064 4,000 CUP
55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Clays .224" 2.200" 3.2 1060 3,700 CUP
Click to expand...

Ron,

Check out IMR SR4756. Its much slower than clays, and Titegroup I think this is a low density, case filling powder. Like puffed wheat. I think some members of your club are using it in reduced .223's
I'm going by memory, so check out loading manuals, and/or ask around.

NormB
 
sunray said:
Where can you shoot a .223 indoors near Hamilton? Look into a load with a cast bullet. Few ranges will let you shoot FMJ's of any kind indoors. They tend to pock the back stop.
Click to expand...


Shooters choice in waterloo is good to go with fmj, bit of a hike from hamilton though
 
I just wanted to give an update - loaded 55 GR Hornady FMJ, over a CCI BR4 primer, neck sized brass, and 6gr of Unique.

Off a shaky bench with a bipod and no front or rear bags, at 50 yards, two 5 shot groups, .700 in and .710 in. Respectable enough for my indoor shooting, will see what they are off a bag and also chrony them (more for curiousity than anything). Recoil is same as my 22LR.
 
I saw this on the website too its safe to load ?
55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Titegroup .224" 2.200" 3.1 1064 4,000 CUP
55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Clays .224" 2.200" 3.2 1060 3,700 CUP

I been using 18grs or IMR 4198 because its the lowest amount of powder, I shoot at shooters choice with my short AR and its probably alot nicer to use titegroup for the other people using the range, not to mention I will get 1800 reloads to the pound
 
msg.drew said:
I saw this on the website too its safe to load ?
55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Titegroup .224" 2.200" 3.1 1064 4,000 CUP
55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Clays .224" 2.200" 3.2 1060 3,700 CUP

I been using 18grs or IMR 4198 because its the lowest amount of powder, I shoot at shooters choice with my short AR and its probably alot nicer to use titegroup for the other people using the range, not to mention I will get 1800 reloads to the pound
Click to expand...

Check your math 7000 gr divided by 18 gr, is about 388 rounds to the pound.
If you are getting 1800 rounds/pound I need to start buying powder where you shop.:p
 
I got some titegroup this afternoon I will load some up tonight and give them a try on Sunday since my range has Idpa tomorrow all day. I doubt that this will have the necessary punch to move the action on my AR... guess well find out
 
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msg.drew said:
I saw this on the website too its safe to load ?
55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Titegroup .224" 2.200" 3.1 1064 4,000 CUP
55 GR. HDY FMJ 55 Clays .224" 2.200" 3.2 1060 3,700 CUP

I been using 18grs or IMR 4198 because its the lowest amount of powder, I shoot at shooters choice with my short AR and its probably alot nicer to use titegroup for the other people using the range, not to mention I will get 1800 reloads to the pound
Click to expand...

Interesting thread.
I'd be concerned with a number of things: 1) will it cycle? 2) I know my reduced tightgroup load for my glock 17 leaves it filthy (3.2 grains and 147CMJs) -what kind of state is it going to leave the AR? 3) 3 grains is, what, ~10% of the .223 case volume? how can you be sure you'll get consistant ignition every time? It sure would suck if one of those rounds squibed on you...
Not to rain on your parade or anything, but honestly, if I was you I'd seriously look at a 9mm upper....
 
I am competent with dealing with squibbed rounds... Thats why I am going to try it in my 10.5" barrel first before I attempt it in my 26".

When you think about it, how much powder do you use in your 9mm 2-3grs ? Its enough to cycle some heavy pistol actions like the 1911... the 1911 slide would be the same as my AR bolt. Have you ever seen an AR with silencer and subsonic ammo it still works.
Don't forget you 9mm is pushing 147grs 223 is only 55grs

to address the issue of only using a small amount of the case capacity there are two ways to deal with it, if you read a reloading manual there is a type of batting kind of like cotton that can be used to keep the powder in place. I also read that the powder is one of the faster burning ones so it should ignite fine

Because we got dumped on with snow today I never had time to make it to the range I will try this tomorrow.

Ps. I have fired near 1000 hand loaded 223's through the rifle without a full proper cleaning the thing is still going strong, I am truly Impressed with its functionality. When these rifles came out the soldiers ditched them for the AK which would work with sand in the action, maybe fully auto military AR's get dirty quicker. My Springfield 1911 is going on 15000 rounds in 1.5 years and only replaced the extractor, I got the gun used with unknown round count
 
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msg.drew said:
I am competent with dealing with squibbed rounds... Thats why I am going to try it in my 10.5" barrel first before I attempt it in my 26".
Click to expand...
I was refering to sending a round down the pipe with the previous bullet still lodged in the tube, but yeah, pounding out a bullet half way lodged down a 26" barrel doesn't sound like too much fun either....

msg.drew said:
When you think about it, how much powder do you use in your 9mm 2-3grs ?
Click to expand...
As I stated, my low power 'production' load is 3.2 grains of Tightgroup. It cycles my Glock, but only just. There is substantial residue as well.
msg.drew said:
Its enough to cycle some heavy pistol actions like the 1911... the 1911 slide would be the same as my AR bolt.
Click to expand...
Actually, most people that play with reduced loading for pistols also adjust recoil spring weights etc.. Regardless, pistols (most) work on blowback -very different from the direct gas on an AR, as I'm sure you are well aware.
msg.drew said:
Have you ever seen an AR with silencer and subsonic ammo it still works.
Click to expand...
:confused: No, I've never loaded subsonic ammo for an AR with a silencer, but I'll take your word for it.

msg.drew said:
Don't forget you 9mm is pushing 147grs 223 is only 55grs
Click to expand...
Again, different operating systems, and the pistol has a ~4.5" barrel length.

msg.drew said:
to address the issue of only using a small amount of the case capacity there are two ways to deal with it, if you read a reloading manual there is a type of batting kind of like cotton that can be used to keep the powder in place.
I also read that the powder is one of the faster burning ones so it should ignite fine
Click to expand...
Great. Sounds like you got it sorted then.
Let us know how it goes!:cheers:
 
I have reloaded probably close to 100000 rounds in my few years of shooting.

I already have thought about everything you just addressed.

I have had lots of squibs in my 45acp messing around with loads, they are easy to deal with in the field if you have a full length guide rod, field strip your gun take your guide rod and push the bullet out the chamber of the barrel easy peasy back shooting in under 2 min. Thats why I dont know why GI guns come with those stupid guide rods.

However you mentioned one thing I forgot about gas operation... I forgot my AR is gas and not blowback...

Leaving now for the range crossing my fingers and hoping I come back with all of them.
 
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If there are any hangfires, use magnum primers. The long skinny 223 case is nice for this type of stuff because the primer flash will cover the entire powder column. Wouldn't be excited about doing this in a wide short case though.

H4895 is a great reduced load powder but this gets too hot for indoor shooting. If you can find it, Hodgdon now makes a very low density powder for cowboy shooters called X-trails (or close to this). A few grains will fill most cowboy cases ensuring no double charges. More expensive to use but maybe safer??????

Have fun shooting indoors. Let us know how these reduced loads work in your AR. Keep an eye on fouling in the gas system/tube - pistol powders tend to be dirtier then rifle powders especially at low chamber pressures.

Jerry
 
reduced/subsonic loads

Have been this route a long time ago useing Unique..2400..700x..Bullseye ..Imr 4227 powders in .222 ...223...243..308..30/06.. etc. in the 800 to 1150 fps range. You will find accuracy with just about any of these powders and certain bullets but it can require a lot of load workup to get the velocities you want with accuracy too.
Have since found IMR Trailboss to work better at these low velocities and the same small weights of powder take up over twice the case volume than any of the other shotgun/pistol type powders I've mentioned.

For those that are rightly concerned with sticking a bullet in the bore...A bit of Alox or any "small " amount of any cast bullet lube lightly coating your copper bullet will be of assistance.
Or.....you can place your copper jacketed bullet between two flat files and with a bit of downwards pressure roll the bullet between the files which depart a nurling (sp) pattern on the bullet...little ###### 's pattern. Then put one wrap of teflon tape (plumbers tape) around your bullets nurled surface.
These proceedures have worked well for me for hundreds of rounds in various calibers in the under 1000 fps area.

Case neck must be slightly " belled/flared " to allow ease of bullet seating without tearing the tape .....then just remove flare with slight crimping action to straighten out the necks.

As most know, in the .223 these subsonics won't cycle your semi autos action..Have shot same in Ruger mini 14 s' too and just pulled back on the charging handle to clear and cycle the next round into the chamber. Makes a repeater out of the semiauto where you don't have to look for your ejected brass all over the ground.

your mileage may vary.......
 
Well I have 10 fingers and 10 toes still this is a remarkable load. I will report on the test when I get all my equipment put back into the vaults

Alright, it works and is safe. That being said it is not powerful enough to cycle the action in fact it does not even move. This load should be excellent out of my bolt gun there is no recoil nothing not even like shooting a 22lr gun. It works out of my AR and is accurate but you have to manually eject each case. Its alot easier on the ears, the necks of my 223 cases where dirty as can be I only fired 5 shots but suspect that my gun is dirty now... that being said I then fired hot 223 hand loads through it the same ones I have always fired since day one and never needed to clean the gun.

What I am thinking about now is changing the load so that it works my action. I took data from 3 different pistol rounds that use titegroup and compared the min and max load with the PSI of the loads the rounds I used to eliminate and variables is the 500 S&W 40 S&W and 38spl they are all different case sizes bullets and capacities the 38 being about the same diameter of a 223.

What I did was divide the min amount of powder with the psi it produces to get a psi per grain, I did that with the max as well. Then I averaged that, then I did the same for the other two rounds. Then I took the results that I got from the 3 different rounds psi per grain and average them. That number works out to 2463 psi per grain of titegroup

If we take that number and multiply that out by 3 grains in my 223 case its 7389psi the load is making now. The only problem is CUP and PSI cant be converted to one or the other. Since the titegroup is in cup I run into a problem but we also know that 223 factory loaded can produce 53000 psi and NATO 5.56 can do even more then that

So what I need to know is whats going to happen if I use 6grs of titegroup with my basic calculations it should make 14778psi which is well below the 53000psi so in theory the gun shouldn't blow up?

On the other side of the scale what about using rifle powder and reducing that right now I am using IMR 4198 18grs which is the lower limit... less pressure isn't going to blow the gun up only not operate it correctly as witness by my titegroup 223 loads
 
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What do you think mystic and guys? What should I do next? Try and build up the pistol powder load and hope it uses less powder then the rifle load? or try and reduce the rifle load? or just keep loading my 18grs of IMR 4198 and who cares how loud or much powder it uses?
 
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