I have been regularly cleaning my barrel after each outing,but my tikka shoots fine first ten shots fine but lately I've noticed it shoots great at the 30+mark,I think the cleaning after every use is not beneficial, but I worry that maybe a seasoned barrel left for 4 or 5 days may give the lubed barrel to turn gummy and be alot different then a warm lubed barrel.any thoughts.
Seasoned barrel vs clean
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maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
There is a school of thought that says, leave the light build up of copper and carbon to fill in the pores and microscopic gaps in the bore. Remove the powder fouling, but don't worry about the copper. My treatment is to clean fired barrels with powder solvents, like Hoppes No. 9. If the patches keep coming out black, maybe switch to a mildly abrasive cleaner like Rem Clean. Then back to the Hoppes. When I'm satisfied the bore isn't dirty, I'll lay in a coat of oil or Automatic Transmission Fluid. Then before firing, just put a couple patches through to lift off the oil. I shoot most of my guns infrequently, so the oil is the preservative layer against rust.
I am assuming you are talking about target shooting, not hunting.
I shoot often.
I shoot precision bolt action rifles.
I do not clean them until accuracy falls off.
Many believe, as I do, that damage can be done by overcleaning.
I shoot often.
I shoot precision bolt action rifles.
I do not clean them until accuracy falls off.
Many believe, as I do, that damage can be done by overcleaning.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Each barrel is a story unto itself... as is the variety of rimfire you might use. I clean very rarely and mostly, just run a dry patch or two and get back to shooting... but that is my barrel and yours may favor another protocol.
If I am leaving a barrel for a bit, a quick dry patch or two gets out the surface gunk and in my climate, all good. I will also swab the chamber and throat to ensure that is crud free. To me, that is more important then the bore itself.
I shoot SK and Lapua ammo.... on occasion, I will use CCI SV or Blaser.
If I have swabbed the bore, it will take a couple of mags to settle. since I compete in PRS, I will be shooting alot and never cleaning so I have adjusted my barrel and ammo to work in this environment.
YMMV
Jerry
If I am leaving a barrel for a bit, a quick dry patch or two gets out the surface gunk and in my climate, all good. I will also swab the chamber and throat to ensure that is crud free. To me, that is more important then the bore itself.
I shoot SK and Lapua ammo.... on occasion, I will use CCI SV or Blaser.
If I have swabbed the bore, it will take a couple of mags to settle. since I compete in PRS, I will be shooting alot and never cleaning so I have adjusted my barrel and ammo to work in this environment.
YMMV
Jerry
My Tikka T1 gets cleaned after heavy shooting sessions of over 150 rounds, which many here call the first half hour of the outing.
I've settled on the 150 round number, because, depending on which ammo I',m shooting and for what purpose, accuracy tends to go south around that number.
If I'm shooting the Aquila type that is likes, It shoots very well, starting on the second shot.
For hunting grouse/bunnies out to 50 yards, the first round gives acceptable accuracy and I don't bother with a fouling shot.
The advice given above to not clean until accuracy drops off is good advice.
It doesn't hurt anything to run a very lightly Kroiled patch down the bore, after a hunt or shooting session to get the crud out.
I've used this method with all of my decent 22rf rifles for the last 20 years.
My rifles work best up to appx 300 rounds, before accuracy startst to suffer. At first it's hardly noticeable, other than the odd unaccountable flyer.
By 400-450 rounds, I wouldn't trust them to hunt with.
That being said, I've seen 22rf rifles with thousands of shots through them, that have likely never been cleaned in a decade that are outstanding tack drivers.
It's up to you to find the sweet spot.
I find that some of the lubed lead bullets are extremely soft and will leave lead fouling behind, even in very smooth bores, such as those found on most Tikka/Anschutz/CZ offerings.
It sounds like you're just getting to know your rifle well. Good on you. The more quirks you can figure out the better.
You will find that each brand/lot of ammo will have different sweet spots.
Very difficult to recognize those sweet spots with cheap, Federal or Blazer offerings.
Doesn't mean they won't shoot well, just means they won't be reliably consistent from shot to shot, depending on your accuracy requirements.
This is the continual discussion and debate at the rimfire range. Everything folks said above I generally agree with, except about overcleaning (see below).
Rimfire chambers and bores are quite different. My experience and opinions below are formed using Anschutz 1907, CZ 452 Lux and CZ 455 Lux, and target ammo brands of SK, Lapua and Eley.
I am of two minds. Either
1) Do not clean until the accuracy falls off or frequency of fliers becomes unacceptable,
OR
2) Clean every time after a day's shooting session, similar to what the centerfire benchrest guys generally do, although not with any particular round count in mind, just end of day.
I have tried both concepts, using tens of thousands of rounds in many experiments. Results: Inconclusive - I see no trend of advantage or disadvantage, once the barrel is seasoned for the day's match.
When freshly cleaned, it does indeed take many sighter rounds to season it and settle down the groups, which initially are wild. Typically the first round down a clean barrel is crazy off. With more sighter rounds I see the group start to come together. Usually I need about 10 sighter rounds before I move to the match bulls. It is typical that the turrets will need a a click or two, sometimes more, for unknown reasons to center the groups for that day (one of the great mysteries of rimfire).
Sometimes when the cold barrel is well fouled with over 100 rounds from previous days, on the next day it might start grouping with the sighters within 5 rounds, maybe within 2. But I have also experienced the opposite effect, needing about 20 sighter rounds to re-season and settle down a well-fouled barrel which refuses to settle down. I imagine patches of crud and gunk being moved around inside the barrel until a new quasi-equilibrium is achieved.
Overcleaning:
I do not understand the theory that "overcleaning" will damage the rifle, only because I have never heard or read the mechanism for this. I have never heard or read what the threshold is between a regular "healthy" clean vs an unhealthy "overclean". Rimfire rifle barrels are made of gun steel. If one uses proper cleaning technique and materials, just like in centerfire cleaning, I do not see how the rimfire rifle can be damaged. If someone can provide hard evidence that over cleaning does damage, I welcome that evidence, and would change my opinion.
Normally I clean fairly regularly with Hoppe's #9, and rinse out with Ballistol. Historically I have always used brass jags and cotton patches, with occasional bronze brush and nylon brush. But recently I switched to VFG felts. I now use the regular felts with Hoppes #9, and use the "super-intensive" felts to scrub the bore instead of using a brush. (I never scrub back against the crown, its all inside the bore). I like the feel and results of the VFG felts, and I plan to stick with them. Bloody hard to find them in stock online, so I bought several 500 piece packs when I found them in stock. Again, I finish with generous amounts of Ballistol, and mop out with the regular felts.
The other day I decided to give my Anschutz 1907 a thorough cleaning because IMO the frequency of fliers was becoming unacceptable. I have read and seen on YT the discussions in centerfire benchrest and F-class about the battles with carbon build up and how those guys keep the carbon build up as low as possible. True that rimfire barrels do not get nearly as hot, so carbon cooking in the barrel is not the same as centerfire, but it will be there to some extent.
I used Patch-Out and Carb-Out with the VFG felts. The next day I won my club's weekly 50m benchrest match. Anecdote, sample size of one, not scientific, could have been luck. The ammo was Eley Team.
So just saying I do not believe the the over-cleaning damage theory. The only thing I worried about was these solvents seeping down into the wood stock, because these solvents are damaging to wood. So I was extra careful.
For matches I shoot very fouled and very clean, depending on the day. The experiment continues. I still don't know what is best.
Rimfire chambers and bores are quite different. My experience and opinions below are formed using Anschutz 1907, CZ 452 Lux and CZ 455 Lux, and target ammo brands of SK, Lapua and Eley.
I am of two minds. Either
1) Do not clean until the accuracy falls off or frequency of fliers becomes unacceptable,
OR
2) Clean every time after a day's shooting session, similar to what the centerfire benchrest guys generally do, although not with any particular round count in mind, just end of day.
I have tried both concepts, using tens of thousands of rounds in many experiments. Results: Inconclusive - I see no trend of advantage or disadvantage, once the barrel is seasoned for the day's match.
When freshly cleaned, it does indeed take many sighter rounds to season it and settle down the groups, which initially are wild. Typically the first round down a clean barrel is crazy off. With more sighter rounds I see the group start to come together. Usually I need about 10 sighter rounds before I move to the match bulls. It is typical that the turrets will need a a click or two, sometimes more, for unknown reasons to center the groups for that day (one of the great mysteries of rimfire).
Sometimes when the cold barrel is well fouled with over 100 rounds from previous days, on the next day it might start grouping with the sighters within 5 rounds, maybe within 2. But I have also experienced the opposite effect, needing about 20 sighter rounds to re-season and settle down a well-fouled barrel which refuses to settle down. I imagine patches of crud and gunk being moved around inside the barrel until a new quasi-equilibrium is achieved.
Overcleaning:
I do not understand the theory that "overcleaning" will damage the rifle, only because I have never heard or read the mechanism for this. I have never heard or read what the threshold is between a regular "healthy" clean vs an unhealthy "overclean". Rimfire rifle barrels are made of gun steel. If one uses proper cleaning technique and materials, just like in centerfire cleaning, I do not see how the rimfire rifle can be damaged. If someone can provide hard evidence that over cleaning does damage, I welcome that evidence, and would change my opinion.
Normally I clean fairly regularly with Hoppe's #9, and rinse out with Ballistol. Historically I have always used brass jags and cotton patches, with occasional bronze brush and nylon brush. But recently I switched to VFG felts. I now use the regular felts with Hoppes #9, and use the "super-intensive" felts to scrub the bore instead of using a brush. (I never scrub back against the crown, its all inside the bore). I like the feel and results of the VFG felts, and I plan to stick with them. Bloody hard to find them in stock online, so I bought several 500 piece packs when I found them in stock. Again, I finish with generous amounts of Ballistol, and mop out with the regular felts.
The other day I decided to give my Anschutz 1907 a thorough cleaning because IMO the frequency of fliers was becoming unacceptable. I have read and seen on YT the discussions in centerfire benchrest and F-class about the battles with carbon build up and how those guys keep the carbon build up as low as possible. True that rimfire barrels do not get nearly as hot, so carbon cooking in the barrel is not the same as centerfire, but it will be there to some extent.
I used Patch-Out and Carb-Out with the VFG felts. The next day I won my club's weekly 50m benchrest match. Anecdote, sample size of one, not scientific, could have been luck. The ammo was Eley Team.
So just saying I do not believe the the over-cleaning damage theory. The only thing I worried about was these solvents seeping down into the wood stock, because these solvents are damaging to wood. So I was extra careful.
For matches I shoot very fouled and very clean, depending on the day. The experiment continues. I still don't know what is best.
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After all the replies, I am going to shoot until accuracy drops off,I was finding it a waist to shoot 20 rounds to get it right(yesterday did a 5 shot fouling with sport and it was .095 lol) I was just worried that putting a fouled barrel in the safe for 4 or 5 days the lube may get gummy.but it will be interesting to see if my barrel picks up were It left off,I only fired 50 through it as I was alternating between that and a 457.on my centerfire rifles I clean after 5 or 6 range trips160or so cartridges)and no issues but they don't have lube on them.
To add to my verbose post above:
I use my CZ 455 with scope for grouse hunting (season on now), and I cleaned it and then seasoned the bore at the range before opening day, and I will not clean the bore for the duration of hunting season. Reason is that I cannot do the 10 round clean bore seasoning routine every morning before the hunt. But in the morning before the hunt starts, I may shoot a round or two into a target on a safe backstop in the bush before walking the trails, to to check it and re-set the barrel for that day. Accuracy only needs to be within about 1 inch for head/neck shots, and the bush is so thick here that most grouse are shot well within 20m.
I use my CZ 455 with scope for grouse hunting (season on now), and I cleaned it and then seasoned the bore at the range before opening day, and I will not clean the bore for the duration of hunting season. Reason is that I cannot do the 10 round clean bore seasoning routine every morning before the hunt. But in the morning before the hunt starts, I may shoot a round or two into a target on a safe backstop in the bush before walking the trails, to to check it and re-set the barrel for that day. Accuracy only needs to be within about 1 inch for head/neck shots, and the bush is so thick here that most grouse are shot well within 20m.
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If you're shooting something like factory-barreled Tikka or CZ .22LRs, whether you clean after every range session or skip a few because it's too time consuming won't really matter -- except for one thing.
The most serious cause for concern is the formation of the "carbon ring". This ring typically builds up in front of the chamber/leade. When shots are fired, there is an accumulation of carbon and perhaps lead that builds up as more and more ammo is shot. Unless regularly removed or prevented, this build up can get to the point where it affects accuracy.
How can a shooter reduce a carbon ring or prevent it from developing in his rifle? There's only one way: regular cleaning.
If you're shooting casually and using copper washed ammo, accuracy issues will always be more ammo-related than anything else. But even there, eventually a carbon ring will form and contribute to the inherent inaccuracy of HV ammo.
Regarding the concern that cleaning itself or overcleaning (cleaning too often) will ruin a barrel, that can happen when it's done the wrong way. It won't happen at all if it's done with the proper equipment and methods. There's a lot of good equipment and any number of methods to use. The most important is to always use a correctly-fitting bore guide and a good quality cleaning rod when cleaning from breech to muzzle.
This is not the place to discuss methods, but readers can rest assured that proper cleaning doesn't harm the bore. Virtually all serious competitors at the highest levels always clean their barrels and clean them often.
But for more casual shooters, except for the carbon ring thing, clean as often as your accuracy goals require.
The most serious cause for concern is the formation of the "carbon ring". This ring typically builds up in front of the chamber/leade. When shots are fired, there is an accumulation of carbon and perhaps lead that builds up as more and more ammo is shot. Unless regularly removed or prevented, this build up can get to the point where it affects accuracy.
How can a shooter reduce a carbon ring or prevent it from developing in his rifle? There's only one way: regular cleaning.
If you're shooting casually and using copper washed ammo, accuracy issues will always be more ammo-related than anything else. But even there, eventually a carbon ring will form and contribute to the inherent inaccuracy of HV ammo.
Regarding the concern that cleaning itself or overcleaning (cleaning too often) will ruin a barrel, that can happen when it's done the wrong way. It won't happen at all if it's done with the proper equipment and methods. There's a lot of good equipment and any number of methods to use. The most important is to always use a correctly-fitting bore guide and a good quality cleaning rod when cleaning from breech to muzzle.
This is not the place to discuss methods, but readers can rest assured that proper cleaning doesn't harm the bore. Virtually all serious competitors at the highest levels always clean their barrels and clean them often.
But for more casual shooters, except for the carbon ring thing, clean as often as your accuracy goals require.
^re: scope-I've encountered this in the past, and couldn't decide (=couldn't determine) if it was a scope issue, or cleaning issue. Refreshing to hear someone else experience this, though I have to imagine it's not that uncommon? Most recently, I don't think it was the scope..so that rifle's bore will get some TLC before the next outing
re: intensive felts-I have Pro-Bore rods and bore guides specific to my rifles, but tend to use the intensive felts most..and pull them through with a 20/20 Concepts "Patchworm". (fancy grass trimmer-like plastic cable) I like to address the bores after every outing, before the gun gets put away. I can't think of a faster method, and it sure seems effective. Ballistol is what I use most. I typically run one of those felts through pretty wet, and leave it that way for at least 10-15 minutes. The second felt tends to reveal how much build-up there was/wasn't. Typically, not much. I may/may not run a third..then a dry patch to to test. When satisfied, a very lightly-oiled patch.
The carbon ring will not become an issue,I can't see myself going without cleaning,after 350 rounds will be my cutoff. Right now it's after every use,so 3 or 4 times a week regardless of shots taken(average 70 shots)although it shot fine after cleaning it just improved by. 3 inches at a 100.i had a nylon 60 that we chased Ptarmigan around south of York factory,it never was cleaned or taken inside it was really accurate for Ptarmigan but then again you could follow a flock for an afternoon so maybe had alot more misses then I remember lol.it shot box ammo,literally a box full of 10 different kinds of 22lr ammo on the trapping table.
If you require the VFG felts, Tesro usually has a good supply as well as the various ballistol products. Hes in Ottawa so shipping shouldnt be crazy. Carbon rings in rimfires take a while to get there but can be a real PIA to remove. Theyre definately an accuracy killer. I second on the damage done by cleaning. If executed properly there should never be any damage.
Fires are usually the death of Grouse, unless the fires are small.
Large, fast moving fires tend to wipe out Grouse flocks, especially the chicks.
I have a Savage MKII TR that has over 6300 rounds of Game Shok through it since 2013 and I've not cleaned the barrel since then. I can hear heads exploding now. It's behaved as it's always behaved and the first cold shot hits the same spot as always. The rifle is duracoated so there's not much to clean, I wipe down the muzzle occasionally and oil the bolt but that's about it. It's very accurate and I have not noticed any degradation in accuracy.
This is not the regime I maintain for my other rimfires...........
This is not the regime I maintain for my other rimfires...........
I have around 4700 documented rounds out of my Mark II (sporter barrel / iron sights) I think I cleaned it about six times but not in the last 2k rounds - just the bolt with a tooth brush a dab of oil over the barrel and I throw it back in the safe.
Yes, Tesro is my go-to supplier for VFG felts. I buy alot of stuff from Tesro (scopes, reloading components, rimfire ammo, felts, etc), and am very happy with their service and shipping costs.
When they sell out of the VFG felts it can take a long time for re-stock. I know they know that customers want the product. I put it down to the source in Germany where for whatever reason, they fall behind on the production line and the delays are on the Germany end.
Yes. This year's fires, and recent fires that burned hot so everything is toast, are not the place to hunt grouse in my experience. I find more ruffed grouse in maturing young forest, and medium mature forest, i.e. forest that has a canopy in the upper level, a gap underneath, and a developed understory of various plants and downed logs. Poplar is an important component I find, the more the better. When winter sets in the ground is essentially devoid of food for ruffed grouse, so they switch to eating buds in the canopy, and poplar buds are a major staple for them. Therefore there will be populations in and around areas of higher poplar densities. Ruffed grouse also like to get up high off the ground to roost and eat buds, so the age of the forest post-burn, or post-harvest is more attractive to them starting at about 20+ years old, with 30-40 years old ideal. The young shorter polewood stands of polar and mixed forest with more tree branches close to the ground before they have really thinned underneath, will hold some grouse, but its impossible to see into those thick stands, and they don't have the security of height like the older stands.
But if the ruffed grouse survived the fire by escaping into the unburned residual stands, you might find them packed in there for the best hunting ever!
Spruce grouse will use younger post-fire or post-harvest stands of pine and spruce, like in the 10-20 year old range, over 5m high, and they don't seem to need the same height for security, for feeding anyway. I don't know if they fly to taller forest at night for roosting like ruffed grouse do.
As everyone knows, the grouse love to come out onto old roads for the grit and insects, and the various herbs that grow along the road in full sunlight that the darker forest does not support.
Thanks Grauhanen for that info on the carbon ring. I was working on the entire barrel with equal cleaning effort, but maybe I will focus more attention on that carbon ring location for more of the scrubbing part of the cleaning.
And yes, that emphasis on the correctly fitting bore guide is critical. I own the Possum Hollow guides made for each of my rimfire models, and I use the solvent port attachment. My cleaning rods are carbon fiber.
