Long action chamber in short caliber , good and bad ??!!
- Thread starter Chatrbaz84
- Start date
As long as the magazine system is functional, the only downside is an action longer than necessary. For example, Winchester made push feed M70s - long enough for .375H&H - in .222Remington.
Some calibers offered in short action rifles are better off in the longer versions of the same actions. Bullets can be seated out further.
Some calibers offered in short action rifles are better off in the longer versions of the same actions. Bullets can be seated out further.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
I suspect the main advantage for the maker was "cheap". As mentioned above, for a time all Model 70 were one action length. Israeli's converted 8x57 Mauser to fire shorter 7.62 NATO by inserting a block in the mag well. I once owned a Savage 112V in 22-250 - a full length action with no magazine slot cut out - very heavy single shot. To make a "shorter" action likely involves the additional expense of new tooling and processes, besides keeping the long actions going. So marketing has to kick in and create a "need" to have the shorter length actions. Weight difference - action, magazine, bottom metal - can not be a lot - at most 3 or 4 ounces??
An example of using a longer action for a short chambering would be the .338 federal.
I have read that the short action limits the OAL required to use a wider array of bullets so a longer action is preferred depending what the rifle is being used for.
I have read that the short action limits the OAL required to use a wider array of bullets so a longer action is preferred depending what the rifle is being used for.
New Camper
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Lurking in the woods near SFRC.
Advantage: long bullets can be seated shallower
Disadvantage: an extra 0.5" of action length and the couple ounces of weight... only a partial issue since extra weight is not an issue with a target rifle.
If you are shooting a 284win the long action will be beneficial... even the short magnums but less so with 243, 7-08 and very pointless with 223, 222. Some will contend that the 0.5" shorter action is stiffer, and theoretically it should be... practically? maybe, if you measure your groups in ten thou of an inch.
EDIT: 6.5cm equals 250-3000 AI necked up to 6.5mm... a case shorter than the 308 class. Personally I'd chamber that new barrel in a proper long action and enjoy the added performance: 6.5x55
Disadvantage: an extra 0.5" of action length and the couple ounces of weight... only a partial issue since extra weight is not an issue with a target rifle.
If you are shooting a 284win the long action will be beneficial... even the short magnums but less so with 243, 7-08 and very pointless with 223, 222. Some will contend that the 0.5" shorter action is stiffer, and theoretically it should be... practically? maybe, if you measure your groups in ten thou of an inch.
EDIT: 6.5cm equals 250-3000 AI necked up to 6.5mm... a case shorter than the 308 class. Personally I'd chamber that new barrel in a proper long action and enjoy the added performance: 6.5x55
As it happens, this summer I was sorting out odds and ends, and put together a rifle on a R700 long action in a synthetic stock with a new take-off R700 heavy .308 barrel. Action was salvaged, so I blasted and parked it. Doesn't look bad at all. Haven't test fired it yet.
I have not used a spacer block. The 308 is a BDL style and the 6mm is a DM. The 6mm comes in a SA from the factory. But you cannot even get close to the lands in a 700 unless you use round nose bullets and still fit in the mag well.
No feeding issues for me.
But for a 308 or a creed use what ever is available.
I agree. With some short mags, there's a benefit in going to a long action so you can run heavy for caliber bullets without losing case capacity but there is zero point in doing that with a 6.5 Creed. If you want to do a 6.5 in a long action, do a 6.5x55 or 6.5-284. Even a .308 is kinda silly, why not just chamber in 30-06 and use the extra case capacity?
Another thing to keep in mind is reduced mag capacity (if using a DBM for AICS mags) as most long action mags are only 5rds (and the 10 rounders are the size of a VHS tape).
unstableryan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Beautiful Okanagan Valley
My Tikka t3 is in a long action 6.5x55. All the magazine room I could ever use and I don't notice the extra half inch of bolt movement and it's not a heavy rifle. My ttsx bullets are seated out almost comically long compared to what factory ammo looks like, but the old 160gr swede shells always looks comically odd.
Had a factory zkk602 in 300win wouldn’t feed for sh*t, it had a factory stamped 375HH mag box. I guess if you wanted to load heavy it would work with a new chamber/throat. Didn’t want to spend the money on a smith to
maybe get it to work.
maybe get it to work.
Advantages out weigh the disadvantages.
adv
You can use the entire line of bullets for the case. eg .30 cal 125 up to 230
more case capacity seating the bullets out further to get higher velocities.
quick change barrels from one caliber to another (same case head dia)
Being able to withdraw a live round without pulling the bolt.
dis-adv
short stroking the round. pulling the bolt back just enough to eject the case but not far enough back to pick up another round.
one time initial setup of the magazines. rounds will nose dive if the mag isn't set up properly be it spacers or adj feed lips.
Bolt length might interfere with cheek riser
cheers
Trevor
adv
You can use the entire line of bullets for the case. eg .30 cal 125 up to 230
more case capacity seating the bullets out further to get higher velocities.
quick change barrels from one caliber to another (same case head dia)
Being able to withdraw a live round without pulling the bolt.
dis-adv
short stroking the round. pulling the bolt back just enough to eject the case but not far enough back to pick up another round.
one time initial setup of the magazines. rounds will nose dive if the mag isn't set up properly be it spacers or adj feed lips.
Bolt length might interfere with cheek riser
cheers
Trevor
Not necessarily... it all really depends on what your end use/goal is and/or the rules of whatever game you intend to play (if competing). With regards to your list of pros/cons, you're totally correct if for whatever reason you're obligated (say by rules, ie FTR) to use a .308. On the other hand, if you play a game where it's advantageous to feed from a mag (like PRS-type stuff) then being limited to 5rd mags is a disadvantage and the advantage of running heavier for caliber bullets doesn't exist (because rules state 175-8 for Tac class). If it's just to target shoot/plink for fun and you have a long action with a .470 bolt face and you want to shoot a .30cal, it would be kinda dumb to chamber it as a .308 instead of a 30-06 as you'd obviously get more performance outta the 30-06.
Basically it all comes down to what the OP has in hand, what he needs to purchase and what he wishes to accomplish.
Because I have a long action and long action compatible high end stock.
During powder shortage I decided to go with 6.5 , case capacity is way less than nosler calibers or 300WM .
In that case, I'd go with a 6.5x55, 6.5-284 or a 6.5-06. Might as well use that extra case capacity.
One reason is to be able to magazine load longer seated bullets than the limit imposed by standard .308 SA mags. The old concept of "short action" is being challenged by some of the new super-long high-BC bullets in the various 6.5 SA calibers, which are impossible to seat properly to load in a standard SA magazine that is limited to about 2.870". They have to be single fed only, which is fine for bench work at the range, and for single feed disciplines, but which eliminates possibility to use them in repeater-type disciplines like PRS matches that must feed from the magazine. Hence the consideration of LA actions for so-called SA cartridges.
I just dropped my Tikka T3X .260 Rem (short action) into an MDT XRS SA Tikka footprint chassis. Tikka T3/T3X in MDT chassis can use MDT's AICS pattern steel magazines with no binder plate, which allows for cartridge max OAL of 2.960" (which is longer than the standard SA 2.870" max mag length). The Tikka's feed ramp overhang is very small, so the no binder plate version works no problem, and is fantastic!
In my Tikka's factory stock with its "M" SA magazine that it came with, I would have to single feed all my longer seated .260 rounds that were longer than standard SA magazine length. That was OK for bench shooting at the range, as I always single feed at the range anyway. I like to seat 136gr Scenars to about 2.912", which is longer than standard SA mag length. This is now no problem for loading into the MDT no binder plate steel AICS pattern mags, and with room to spare (and I can still single feed). So I am now set up for PRS style matches with my Tikka in the XRS (if I can ever get to one, I live about 1000km away from the closest matches!).
2.960" is probably not long enough to seat for the longer heavier Berger 6.5 bullets (e.g. 156gr, 153.5gr, 144gr), but I don't plan on using those in my .260.
I never could find the Tikka "M+" mags (which can handle longer seated bullets, and which I am guessing were made for the 6.5x55 Swed) for sale anywhere (sold out), and I emailed Stoeger Canada for help on this. As usual, Stoeger was no help, would not sell me a M+ mag, would not order me an M+ mag, did squat. (Stoeger don't seem to want to learn about customer service with my Sako and Tikka rifle parts, but I digress....)
The Tikka T3/T3X fans here all know that with the standard .308 size bolt face, it is easily converted between short and long action with the bolt stop swap (Yo Dave sells Tikka SA and LA bolt stops), and a Tikka SA, MA (M+), LA magazine swap in the Tikka factory stock. With an aftermarket stock/chassis, you are stuck with what the bottom metal allows for mags.
Anyways, the Tikka T3/T3X action is a very versatile system for shooting SA, MA, and LA standard bolt face cartridges.
I just dropped my Tikka T3X .260 Rem (short action) into an MDT XRS SA Tikka footprint chassis. Tikka T3/T3X in MDT chassis can use MDT's AICS pattern steel magazines with no binder plate, which allows for cartridge max OAL of 2.960" (which is longer than the standard SA 2.870" max mag length). The Tikka's feed ramp overhang is very small, so the no binder plate version works no problem, and is fantastic!
In my Tikka's factory stock with its "M" SA magazine that it came with, I would have to single feed all my longer seated .260 rounds that were longer than standard SA magazine length. That was OK for bench shooting at the range, as I always single feed at the range anyway. I like to seat 136gr Scenars to about 2.912", which is longer than standard SA mag length. This is now no problem for loading into the MDT no binder plate steel AICS pattern mags, and with room to spare (and I can still single feed). So I am now set up for PRS style matches with my Tikka in the XRS (if I can ever get to one, I live about 1000km away from the closest matches!).
2.960" is probably not long enough to seat for the longer heavier Berger 6.5 bullets (e.g. 156gr, 153.5gr, 144gr), but I don't plan on using those in my .260.
I never could find the Tikka "M+" mags (which can handle longer seated bullets, and which I am guessing were made for the 6.5x55 Swed) for sale anywhere (sold out), and I emailed Stoeger Canada for help on this. As usual, Stoeger was no help, would not sell me a M+ mag, would not order me an M+ mag, did squat. (Stoeger don't seem to want to learn about customer service with my Sako and Tikka rifle parts, but I digress....)
The Tikka T3/T3X fans here all know that with the standard .308 size bolt face, it is easily converted between short and long action with the bolt stop swap (Yo Dave sells Tikka SA and LA bolt stops), and a Tikka SA, MA (M+), LA magazine swap in the Tikka factory stock. With an aftermarket stock/chassis, you are stuck with what the bottom metal allows for mags.
Anyways, the Tikka T3/T3X action is a very versatile system for shooting SA, MA, and LA standard bolt face cartridges.
