Can't make the 1/2 inch 50 yard challenge and need help to do so
- Thread starter jamesharrison
- Start date
Thank you very much. I just sent you a PM.
No; I don't.
I have no intention of shooting cheap ammunition. I laid in a brick of Lapua Centre-X, Midas+, X-Act & TenX & I still have a few bricks of S-K Rifle Match, as well as Standard Plus, from when I first bought the rifle. I thought that buying a brick of each would let me find the ammunition it likes, before buying a case of its favourite fodder.
I thought most folks still do that (sort into rim thickness), mind you I haven't spoken to any BR-50 shooters for a number of years now.
Thank you for the tip.
I was not aware than ANY .22LR used/uses copper jacketed bullets and no quality .22LR, at least that I am aware of, uses a copper wash in its offerings.
The idea of finding the brand or variety of ammo a rifle likes -- be it Center X, Midas +, X-Act, Eley Match, Eley Tenex or whatever name is on it -- is misleading and plain wrong. Rifles don't usually show a preference for a brand of ammo.
Why? Ammo is made in batches. There are many different batches or lots of every match ammo made. Different lots of the same ammo, Center X, for example, can perform very differently in the same rifle.
To illustrate, I had some CX from a lot that was excellent. I also had CX from a lot that was terrible. The best lot gave a ten-shot average at 100 yards that was sub-1". The other lot produced a ten-shot average at 100 that was more than twice the other lot's average. The poorly performing lot had an ES twice that of the much better CX.
Re: The idea of finding the brand or variety of ammo a rifle likes -- be it Center X, Midas +, X-Act, Eley Match, Eley Tenex or whatever name is on it -- is misleading and plain wrong
Then what should I buy?
Then what should I buy?
Some, perhaps most, casual .22LR target shooters buy random lots of whatever "top brand" is available or affordable. Since the average lot will perform will have an average level of performance for that variety, a random lot will have a reasonable chance at getting a lot that will perform at a reasonable level. Of course, "average" and "reasonable" vary between not only rifles but also shooters. Keep in mind that the same ammo may perform differently in different rifles. Each bore has its unique characteristics. The best performance is inevitably the result of matching the ammo to the particular rifle.
The only reliable way to find the most appropriate ammo available is to compare different lots by testing them. It's time consuming and requires the availability of a variety of ammos to test. Real and significant differences can be seen between different lots of the same variety of ammo.
I suggest that before taking any trouble to test by lots, you first ensure that the rifle bore and chamber/leade area is clean. Since you are getting a borescope (the Teslong borescope will be quite satisfactory), it will be possible to confirm the elimination of a carbon ring, should there be one. Years of club shooting and the possibility of indifferent maintenance may have taken a toll.
Reshoot the ammo you have on hand. There may be significant improvement if the barrel hasn't been properly cleaned since testing first began.
To improve performance or consistency you may wish to try another method other than "free recoil" with that particular rifle for the reasons outlined above in post #22.
As a tip to save time, effort, and ammo, shoot ammo with similar or identical lube before using another ammo/lube combination. As an example, since SK and Lapua use the same or very similar lube, it won't be necessary to clean and refoul the barrel between different varieties of SK or Lapua. (To illustrate, I shoot Lapua almost exclusively and foul my bores with SK Standard Plus, the least expensive SK product I have on hand.) When you switch to Eley (or from Eley) clean the bore and refoul with ammo with similar lube.
James,
What grauhanan is saying is that a specific lot of Brand A / Lot Y may or may not shoot better than a specific lot of Brand B / Lot Z in your rifle so buying and testing random lots of different brands and grades of ammunition may not produce a single superior result.
Best practice is to shoot multiple lots of one brand / grade of ammunition to find the lot of that brand / grade which produces the best results in your rifle.
Go back through your old targets and notes. Determine which brand and grade of ammunition has given you the best overall results. Once you've done that, source small (but adequate for testing) quantities of different lot #'s of that particular brand and grade ammunition.
Then, take those lots to the range on a day with optimal conditions and shoot them in sequence. No need to foul between lots. You should see that your rifle prefers one or more of the lots over the remainder, ie: smaller average group size).
Once you've determined which lot shoots the tightest groups, go buy as much of that lot # as you can / want. Finally, go try the 50m challenge again and hopefully "Success"
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- Summerland, BC
This is the dead dark rabbit hole of rimfire BR shooting... there will always be another lot or type of ammo that 'might' be the holy grail. Has it happened, absolutely... but if a rifle averages with good quality ammo groups bigger then desired AND you are not using a match barrel set up to shoot itty bitty groups, I wouldn't waste anymore time and resources.
how much is a brick of top tier match ammo? How many bricks did you buy, and will buy to test? How much is the cost of a quality barrel?
I have done enough rimfire shooting over my many years in the sport to know that averages mean something. From your initial info and groups, the rifle is tossing flyers... and since you are using very good ammo, you have to assume, that the next shot is similar to the previous. Otherwise, this whole exercise is a big endless loop of frustration.
You shoot 50rds... 49rds do well... 1 shot does poorly. At this point, you change ammo and try again. completely different ammo... 50 fired... 1 or 2 tossed. Which is more probable... that two random types of very expensive ammo has the same number of flyers in each box or that the barrel is worn and this is just a random affect?
After trying 4 to 6 types of the best ammo we can get... and the results on target are still the same... what is the constant throughout your test?
Bedding, optics, firing pin spring, firing pin, your shooting and the rests you use... that should all have been debugged at the beginning but they can also offer areas of improvement
by all means continue to test ammo and lots of such... but if you overlay ALL your groups minus the zingers, what do you see? I suspect that the average of all your better ammo fall into a decent range.... and the flyers push you way out.
You shouldn't have to fight your gear...
Jerry
"No need to foul between lots."
True if using Eley Match Grades or Lapua Match grades.
Even when switching between the Match ammo and Biathlon from the same manufacturer, no difference has been detected.
While some believe their rifle prefers Eley with a velocity of 1062 or 1064, every lot may be different.
A few years ago, five BR50 shooters shared two bricks of XAct. This gave everyone enough ammo to shoot sighters and a match.
No one rifle found it acceptable. Some went back to their tried and true but over all the scores were around 1500/2500.
There are no real guarantees in rimfire ammunition . . . if it goes "BANG" the guarantee is full-filled.
Limiting the knowns helps except for the "NUT" that holds the gun and the "JERK" that pulls the trigger!
One five-shot group does not constitute testing. Five ten-shot groups is a starting point for me. Glenn does some "ultimate" testing which raises the question: Do you continue to test the good stuff or save it for the matches? For me, the ultimate test is on game day.
True if using Eley Match Grades or Lapua Match grades.
Even when switching between the Match ammo and Biathlon from the same manufacturer, no difference has been detected.
While some believe their rifle prefers Eley with a velocity of 1062 or 1064, every lot may be different.
A few years ago, five BR50 shooters shared two bricks of XAct. This gave everyone enough ammo to shoot sighters and a match.
No one rifle found it acceptable. Some went back to their tried and true but over all the scores were around 1500/2500.
There are no real guarantees in rimfire ammunition . . . if it goes "BANG" the guarantee is full-filled.
Limiting the knowns helps except for the "NUT" that holds the gun and the "JERK" that pulls the trigger!
One five-shot group does not constitute testing. Five ten-shot groups is a starting point for me. Glenn does some "ultimate" testing which raises the question: Do you continue to test the good stuff or save it for the matches? For me, the ultimate test is on game day.
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Another thing James, wind flags. Do you have any? Regardless what anyone may say re flags, they are a MUST when trying to ring the most out of the rifle ammo combination. It does not take much of a velocity increase in the wind or switch in direction to move that bullet more than one thinks.
Lots of great tips here. Thanks all; much appreciated!
I got the fore-end bag adapter [thanks to Grauhanen]
I got my borescope & my new-to-me B&L 36x with the Swindlehurst damper. [thanks sfp]
cycbb486:
I do have wind flags, which I will have to break out next year. Might have to replace the silk though, as I haven't used them since 1995.
I got the fore-end bag adapter [thanks to Grauhanen]
I got my borescope & my new-to-me B&L 36x with the Swindlehurst damper. [thanks sfp]
cycbb486:
I do have wind flags, which I will have to break out next year. Might have to replace the silk though, as I haven't used them since 1995.
Lots of great advice above. I look forward to seeing results after the thorough cleaning regimen.
I don't know the S&L M77 rifle. Is the barrel free floated? If no, then the barrel might be extremely finicky with forearm stock pressure, and you have already mentioned shims which is worth experimenting with along with corresponding action screw torque.
I have a CZ 452 Lux with the one action screw and forward barrel lug screw, and its not free floated. I found that a shim support of thin cork material (the kind that comes in a roll), can be cut and layered inside the forearm barrel channel to provide pressure on the barrel in front of the barrel lug, and tuned with barrel lug screw torque. I use rubber cement to attach the shims which is removable and non-staining, so there is no risk of permanent change.
Re wind flags: My local range does not allow shooting until after 9:00 AM, and by then there is almost always some wind. Very rarely will it be a zero wind condition. IMO at 50m without good wind flags, it is almost impossible to achieve the five 1/2 inch groups (assuming quality ammo which has already been discussed). At my local range the wind swirls inside the berms in switching directions throughout a match or practice session - there is no such thing as a consistent wind, it is constantly switching, dropping, rising, etc. Without holding appropriately or waiting for a gust to subside before firing, its impossible to score well.
When I say "good" wind flags, I mean the designs that pivot on a low friction axis and with a snap swivel attachment for the ribbon to let it spin: spin will reduce erratic flutter and show a truer direction and subtleties in switchy-ness, and the ribbon angle indicates wind strength. The simple flagging tape tied to a fixed stick does not work for me because it flaps erratically.
I don't know the S&L M77 rifle. Is the barrel free floated? If no, then the barrel might be extremely finicky with forearm stock pressure, and you have already mentioned shims which is worth experimenting with along with corresponding action screw torque.
I have a CZ 452 Lux with the one action screw and forward barrel lug screw, and its not free floated. I found that a shim support of thin cork material (the kind that comes in a roll), can be cut and layered inside the forearm barrel channel to provide pressure on the barrel in front of the barrel lug, and tuned with barrel lug screw torque. I use rubber cement to attach the shims which is removable and non-staining, so there is no risk of permanent change.
Re wind flags: My local range does not allow shooting until after 9:00 AM, and by then there is almost always some wind. Very rarely will it be a zero wind condition. IMO at 50m without good wind flags, it is almost impossible to achieve the five 1/2 inch groups (assuming quality ammo which has already been discussed). At my local range the wind swirls inside the berms in switching directions throughout a match or practice session - there is no such thing as a consistent wind, it is constantly switching, dropping, rising, etc. Without holding appropriately or waiting for a gust to subside before firing, its impossible to score well.
When I say "good" wind flags, I mean the designs that pivot on a low friction axis and with a snap swivel attachment for the ribbon to let it spin: spin will reduce erratic flutter and show a truer direction and subtleties in switchy-ness, and the ribbon angle indicates wind strength. The simple flagging tape tied to a fixed stick does not work for me because it flaps erratically.
Biologist, I hear your dilemma re shooting time and the wind. It is nice to have a calm to get a baseline or to dial your scope in for a dead calm condition.
The wind though is what we usually have to shoot in so it is something we cannot hide from. This is when you learn your wind reading skills, whether or not your rifle/ammo can shoot thru a condition or not. I find with rimfire or at least my setup when I shoot rimfire score in NW Ontario, I better shoot a right to left wind. If not, by by 10 ring.
I still cannot believe how many people I see at a range that claim 1/4 minute rifles and never shoot with a couple flags.
The wind though is what we usually have to shoot in so it is something we cannot hide from. This is when you learn your wind reading skills, whether or not your rifle/ammo can shoot thru a condition or not. I find with rimfire or at least my setup when I shoot rimfire score in NW Ontario, I better shoot a right to left wind. If not, by by 10 ring.
I still cannot believe how many people I see at a range that claim 1/4 minute rifles and never shoot with a couple flags.
It's important to use wind flags when shooting. Effective use of wind flags to account for wind is both one of the most necessary and most difficult skills to master -- especially in changing or gusting winds.
Since mastering the effective use of wind flags in changing wind conditions is not easy -- and I don't have such skills -- the alternative is to shoot in the absence of wind. My club's range is a small one, where winds change direction and speed quickly and often. But it's not enough to look at tree leaves etc. to gauge when wind is absent. Good flags can confirm it, at least where they are placed. As a result, more wind flags are always more preferable to fewer.
When I was shooting exclusively at 50ish yards, I used a simple rod and surveyors tape to indicate wind movement. It was servicable but not particularly good. At 100 yards, however, more and better flags are an an absolute must. Even the slightest difference in air movement between two shots will reveal itself on the target. Flags that are sensitive and reveal even minor changes in air movement are required.
Below are two flags on the 100 yard range. They were placed at about 50 yards and 80 yards. Sometimes they both show similar wind as below, sometimes only one moves.
Below is one of the flags, shown closer up. The flag pole and cantilever arm with the flag on a swivel were purchased separately from the base. The easily folding base is shown on the right. The flag pole, which itself is collapsible, sits in the base. Thee two flags as well as the bases were very reasonably priced.
It's important to use wind flags when shooting. Effective use of wind flags to account for wind is both one of the most necessary and most difficult skills to master -- especially in changing or gusting winds.
Since mastering the effective use of wind flags in changing wind conditions is not easy -- and I don't have such skills -- the alternative is to shoot in the absence of wind. My club's range is a small one, where winds change direction and speed quickly and often. But it's not enough to look at tree leaves etc. to gauge when wind is absent. Good flags can confirm it, at least where they are placed. As a result, more wind flags are always more preferable to fewer.
When I was shooting exclusively at 50ish yards, I used a simple rod and surveyors tape to indicate wind movement. It was servicable but not particularly good. At 100 yards, however, more and better flags are an an absolute must. Even the slightest difference in air movement between two shots will reveal itself on the target. Flags that are sensitive and reveal even minor changes in air movement are required.
Below are two flags on the 100 yard range. They were placed at about 50 yards and 80 yards. Sometimes they both show similar wind as below, sometimes only one moves.
Below is one of the flags, shown closer up. The flag pole and cantilever arm with the flag on a swivel were purchased separately from the base. The easily folding base is shown on the right. The flag pole, which itself is collapsible, sits in the base. Thee two flags as well as the bases were very reasonably priced.
Where did you find those, and how much? - dan
Dan, the flag pole, cantilevered arm and swivel mounted flag were from Nordic Marksman at $34 each, currently out of stock. https://www.nordicmarksman.com/Wind-Flag-50-m-100-m-ISSF-Type-2.html The pole itself is designed to be penetrated into the ground (or snow), but I figured a base would make it a little more practical at my range, which has a hard ground surface.
The bases came from a pair of aluminum photography light stands. I removed the extending parts to retain the bases of each. They are now about $26 for a pair at Amazon. h t t p s://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00LGGVOM0/?coliid=I1KKO4P1U2JQQT&colid=1REVJ1WIWQOSB&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it
