The old 165gr vs 180gr .30-06 thread...

I have found that since Hornady released the GMX, the data has been reduced substantially in all offerings where it is included with the interlocks and others. Likely due to the pressure differential between the two styles of bullets. In my 280 with the old data using 139gr BTSP’s my rifle would shoot right along with the charges and velocity listed. With the new data and all else being same I’m getting stating load- 7/08 velocity. But if I use GMX bullets and the new data I get advertised velocities or close to them.

Just a sample of one but I think there’s something to it.
 
Todays range session:

180gr Hornady BTSP, 55grs IMR-4831, 2576fps, 2603fps, 2560fps avg=2579.
3 shot group 1.5"


180gr Hornady BTSP, 55grs H-4350, 2607fps, 2608fps, 2618fps avg=2611fps.
Vel avg looked great but group was over 2"...


180gr Nosler ETip, 55grs IMR-4831, 2755, 2653, 2787 avg=2731.
Again not terrible, but 1.5" vertical string group.


180gr Nosler ETip, 55grs H-4350, ERR, ERR, 2728fps. 2-1/4" group. Crappy.
Ignore the Horn 180gr on that target... it was def the ETip!




From my manuals .30-06 avg mx vel (conservative value) 2752fps for a max velocity.

I am more interested in working with the 180gr Hornady than the ETip, simply because I have close to 200 of the 180gr Hornadys and just 1 box of the ETips (only 44 left after today).

And I've got to build a load with IMR-4350, tweak the IMR-4831 and H-4350.
If I don't find something there, then I can try H414, it's pretty close to IMR-4350/H-4350 on the burn rate chart.

But at least I've got something to work with.
 
Now for the .300H&H, I screwed this up royally!!

From data averaged from all my loading manuals, I should have a max vel of approx 2900fps with the 190's and about 2825fps with the 200's.

Well I was WAY OVER on both, due to 2 factors: #1 I started with an assumption on the H-4350 load I was already using, which turned out to be 'Hot' and then added 1/2 a grain more powder. :bangHead:

Then since about the only load info I had for the 190 was in the Hornady manual, which is WAY LOW... naturally I extrapolated data, and rolled up a 190gr load based off the already too hot 200 grain. :bangHead:

I had no issues with this at all in the M700 action, no unusual pressure signs, and I was checking all of the cartridges/primers etc, cuz I knew right away I was running hot.


190gr Hornady BTSP, 69grs H-4350, avg vel was 3193fps! Almost 300fps about max avgs.
And a crappy 2" group too... the 3 shots are strung out vertically, with 2 of them over top of the paper.


190 Hornady BTSP, 69grs IMR-4831, 3100fps avg vel, again 200fps too fast, and also a crappy 2" group.


200gr Nosler Accubond (such a great bullet used properly!), 67grs H4350, 3087fps avg vel, a 1.5" group. My hunting load this year deer season was this 200gr Nosler Accubond with 66.5grs H-4350.
So this group was really similar to what I shot at the range before I headed out after deer.
But again 250fps too hot...


200gr Nosler Accubond, 66grs IMR-4831, got no speed data... the muzzle blast messed up Chrony readout.
Terrible group over 2-1/2".


So what did I learn today?

#1, making an assumption based on already faulty starting point. Very bad style! Thanks to the M700 action, we live to shoot another day.

#2, gotta set the Chrony just a bit farther from the bench. With the muzzle blast from those hot-rodded .300 loads, I was getting way too many errors! Bad enough to have lousy loads I wasn't even getting all the velo readouts!


So from here, I go back to the drawing board, work on that H-4350 load and I will also load up some IMR-4350 with that 200 grain Nosler.

As to the Hornady, well I guess I will try the old fail-safe IMR-4350, and just de-tune that velocity might bring the group size down.
 
Besides the stupidity of my .300H&H loads, I was none too happy shooting my .30-06 as compared to the .300H&H. The .300H&H has a fantastic trigger, super light, almost 'hair trigger', which makes it much easier to shoot accurately, as there's no over-travel finger creep, nor heavy trigger etc...

On that .30-06, after shooting the .300H&H, it felt like I was weight-lifting as a comparison.

So today I took the .30-06 out of the stock, did a trigger adjustment. It will be interesting to see if I've got it right, or need more tweaks.

Also loaded 3 each 180gr Hornady BTSP with 56.5grs IMR-4350 and H-4350 for the .30-06. So those are bumped up 1.5grs from what I had started with... of course I had not loaded it with IMR-4350, so we'll see. But pretty comfortable with that load based on what I had fired, plus loading manuals reference.

Then for the .300H&H I loaded 3 each 190gr Hornady BTSP with 64.5grs IMR-4350 and H-4350 and 3 each 200gr Nosler Accubonds with 62.5grs IMR-4350 and H-4350.

The 190gr Hornadys are reduced 4.5grs, and the 200gr Accubonds are reduced 4.5grs as well.

I did not load any with IMR-4831.
 
Today I loaded:

.30-06, 180gr Hornady BTSP, 56.5gr H-4350 and 56.5grs IMR-4350 (red box).

.300H&H, 190gr Hornady BTSP 64.5grs H-4350 and IMR-4350, plus 200gr Nosler Accubond 62.5grs H-4350 and IMR-4350 (blue box).

H-4350 .300H&H load is 4.5grs lower than what I fired yesterday. IMR-4350 load is new load to test.

.30-06 H-4350 is 1.5grs higher than yesterday.

.30-06 IMR-4350 load is new load to test.

Now, as bad as these targets look, there is a caveat there: my Chrony wouldn't register any speeds today. I believe the battery is weak, as I took extra care to set it back, where muzzle blast shouldn't have been a factor.

And that was damn frustrating! Got no data, just the paper targets. ERR! ERR! ERR! Grrrr!! :mad:

Second thing, another guy showed up at the range, and he was one of those guys just started banging away.
Wouldn't even respond when I said "Hi!"... just turned away from me like I wasn't there.
And he maintained that the whole time, so I couldn't shoot and inspect targets as I normally do.

With the Chrony not working anyway, I got fed up and fired off all the .300H&H pretty much without pause. The barrel was def' heated up and I can't depend on any of those targets really.

As to the trigger adjustment on the .30-06, it was much better.

Also, my shooting is def' likely a factor. Was tricky with the cold today trying to get the rifles settled on the bags.




180gr Hornady BTSP, 56.5grs IMR-4350, promising.


180gr Hornady BTSP, 56.5grs H-4350, also shows promise.


190gr Hornady BTSP, 64.5grs H-4350. Yuck... third bullet was up off top right!


190gr Hornady BTSP, 64.5grs IMR-4350, oddly might be able to do something with this... you can see all 3 shots top right.


200gr Nosler Accubond, 62.5grs H-4350.


200gr Nosler Accubond, 62.5grs IMR-4350.
 
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Ok so today I got up, had the usual 2 cuppa coffee, decided I had time to hit the bench...

I loaded up the 180gr Hornady BTSP, with 55.0. 55.5 and 56.0grs H-4350.

Got to the range right after 'legal shooting' time.

First 3 shots with the 55.0gr load I got ZERO registered velocities!! Ready to put a bullet in the Chrony!

Instead, decided to change position of the rods from the closer/tighter angle to the wider angle...

Went to the 55.5gr load and Presto!! registered vel' data!


This is the 55.0gr load and no data, but a decent grouping.


55.5grs and looking very promising.


56.0grs and the group has opened up...


I thought this picture was simply amazing, as you can still see the orange, right in the muzzle of the rifle...



 
Demonical said:
Ok so today I got up, had the usual 2 cuppa coffee, decided I had time to hit the bench...

I loaded up the 180gr Hornady BTSP, with 55.0. 55.5 and 56.0grs H-4350.

Got to the range right after 'legal shooting' time.

First 3 shots with the 55.0gr load I got ZERO registered velocities!! Ready to put a bullet in the Chrony!

Instead, decided to change position of the rods from the closer/tighter angle to the wider angle...

Went to the 55.5gr load and Presto!! registered vel' data!


This is the 55.0gr load and no data, but a decent grouping.


55.5grs and looking very promising.


56.0grs and the group has opened up...


I thought this picture was simply amazing, as you can still see the orange, right in the muzzle of the rifle...



Click to expand...

Kool Picture ! So what were the VELOCITIES ? RJ
 
Demonical said:
So I think everybody should have a Powder Burn Rate Chart.

I was down at my reloading bench, taking inventory on the powders I have left, and I'm looking at loading 180gr .30-06, 200gr .300H&H versus a killer load I have in 165gr .30-06.

I need to come up with something that is as accurate as the 165gr load, or maybe that becomes the fall back option.

Anyway I'm looking at my powders and I've got just enough IMR4350 and H4350 to probably come up with decent loads from one or the other (or both).

But then I reference the old Powder Burn Rate Chart, and I see that H414 is right below both IMR4350 and H4350, so damn! I can get some loads developed with it too, and maybe I find something there, which extends my meager powder rations!



Oh ya... this was supposed to be 165gr vs 180gr .30-06, but I see my .300H&H has to get involved here, and it will be a 200gr Accubond that I'll be playing with there.

The good news is I already have a 165gr .30-06 load figured out. Now I just gotta hammer on the 180gr and 200gr .30-06 and .300H&H to see if either of those can better the 165gr .30-06.

And finding out that H414 is a viable powder is awesome.
Click to expand...

Powder burn chart mean nothing..they change up and down as per the covid stats…
 
@ remington jim, I got no readouts on the 55.0gr load, but the 55.5gr load averaged 2732fps and oddly the 56.0gr load was 2726fps.

I think somewhere between 55.0grs and 55.5grs is where I'll get the best accuracy with the H-4350.

Then the next step to tweak that might be trying magnum primers, changed COAL etc...

And then after that would be the powder switch to IMR-4350 maybe?
 
Demonical said:
@ remington jim, I got no readouts on the 55.0gr load, but the 55.5gr load averaged 2732fps and oddly the 56.0gr load was 2726fps.

I think somewhere between 55.0grs and 55.5grs is where I'll get the best accuracy with the H-4350.

Then the next step to tweak that might be trying magnum primers, changed COAL etc...

And then after that would be the powder switch to IMR-4350 maybe?
Click to expand...

I personally wouldn’t swap primers at this point because when you do you should technically back off your powder charge and it could be like starting all over again. Myself I would tweak the seating depth a bit either way, likely closer to rifling and see if group tightens up. If not, or if I’m not happy with results then a primer swap and do over may be in order. Just my .02c
 
^ @leveractionjunkie, I agree with pretty much everything you are saying there. I haven't checked my coal, but I'm certain I have lots of room there to change bullet seating depth.
 
https://www.nosler.com/30-06-springfield

Damn! Nosler online loading data for H4350 lines up nearly exactly with velocities I have tested.

I have avg 2723fps mv at 55.5grs, that's dead in between what they report at 54.5grs and 56.5grs.

And indicates that 52.5 was best accuracy, so gonna have to give that a go!


*IMR-4350 still the next logical step if the H4350 doesn't pan out*
 
From that picture of you shooting, it appears that the front sling swivel stud is being drug across the front rest upon firing. It may be an optical illusion though. But if it is that can be detrimental to accuracy.
 
I had good luck from a 23.75" barrel 30-06 shooting 165 gr Hdy Interbonds over 56.6 gr of H4350 - 2800 fps and 5/8" groups at 100yds. i had worked my way up to 59gr of H4350 (2915 fps), but was starting to see pressure signs.

Currently working up loads with the 165 GMX in 300 H&H - you are right about the Hornady Book, terribly conservative data. I worked up to just shy of a max Hodgdon load and am finally getting the velocities I am looking for. Time for accuracy testing on the 300H&H.
 
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