Traditions Nitrofire Muzzleloader, gamechangers

buoff

buoff

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The Traditions Nitrofire use a different method of loading the black powder, it is a gamechanger.

MZ2.png


However in some States it is not legal to use during muzzleloader season. I was wondering what the legality is for Ontario muzzleloader season so I pose the question to Ontario MNR. Here is the reply.


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Thank you for your email -

The firearm you describe in your email loads the projectile into the muzzle of the gun. This qualifies the firearm as a muzzleloader and can be used in corresponding seasons for game in Ontario.

We hope you have found this information helpful.

Regards,

NRISC web reader - AKC

*******************************************

Natural Resources Information and Support Centre
Ministry of Northern Development, Mines, Natural Resources and Forestry
300 Water Street
Peterborough, ON K9J 3C7
Tel: 1-800-667-1940 / 1-800-387-7011
TTY: 1-866-686-6072
NRISC@ontario.ca
 
I don’t see much advantage either. I do the same thing with my CVA wolf. Unscrew your breach plug, remove triple 7 pellets, and replace the pellets with fresh ones next hunting day. I leave my bullet seated all week of muzzleloader. Just don’t put your fingers all over the fresh pellets when your loading them in next morning. I also keep minimal thread grease on the breach plug the week I am hunting so as to avoid contamination. Does it meet the technical requirements of not loaded? No, as the bullet remains in place. But with no powder, no primer, and breach plug removed, I’m willing to take my chances. You’d have to pull the bullet on this nitro fire anyway so same deal.
 
Bigbubba said:
Loads powder from breech
Loads projectile from muzzle
Click to expand...

Used to be the way that folks shot target rifles.
Prime and charge a cartridge, load a cast bullet at the muzzle, and push it to the wanted location, insert the cartridge and proceed to aim and fire.

Does not seem very much like a muzzle loader to me.
 
You can use the similar argument for archery hunting or scoping the gun for hunting.

Traditional way -Archery, recurve with no sights, arrow rest, counterbalance and fancy broad head.
- guns, just iron sight.

There are still some traditionalist that use recurve bow and flintlocks for hunting, not many.

The question is how much modern improvement should we use for hunting. This should be left to the individual and what is allow by the government regulator. As it was pointed out, this type of muzzleloader is not allow in some States for use during muzzleloader season.
 
buoff said:
You can use the similar argument for archery hunting or scoping the gun for hunting.

Traditional way -Archery, recurve with no sights, arrow rest, counterbalance and fancy broad head.
- guns, just iron sight.

There are still some traditionalist that use recurve bow and flintlocks for hunting, not many.

The question is how much modern improvement should we use for hunting. This should be left to the individual and what is allow by the government regulator. As it was pointed out, this type of muzzleloader is not allow in some States for use during muzzleloader season.
Click to expand...

I would differ, in that the question, as I see it, is "How much can the system be gamed, before there is no longer seen a need to have a separate season, for the muzzle loader hunters?". Out here in BC, they have pretty much done away with ML seasons as a result of such. Archery season is only a couple days, in most places, but they do give the Archery guys a bit of an early access pass.
Archery, I see a bit differently, as you can spend a lot of money on gear, and still not be much of a risk to local wildlife! LOL!

I could claim a Winchester Model 70 was a Muzzle loader, if I rammed a bullet in it from the muzzle, and proceeded to put a pre-loaded cartridge, containing primer, powder, and a wad to prevent spilling. It wouldn't stand up in court, but I could claim it all the same.
To my eye, a plastic cartridge, is still a cartridge.

I would sorta expect stuff like this to be looked at by those making decisions about separate seasons, in a pretty similar way that I am.
 
PERSONALLY, I DON'T SEE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DIFFERENCE BETWEEN:
1) dumping 2(or 3) 777 pellets down the barrel, stuffing a saboted projectile down after it, breaking open the action and inserting a primer; and
2) stuffing a saboted projectile down the barrel, breaking open the action and inserting a preloaded primer/powder component.

Both are going to take 20-30-40 seconds depending on how proficient the shooter is.

I know some states had/have different rules for MZ seasons, because I believe the thinking is that the modern MZ guns with scopes and rifling and break actions to keep everything dry are essentially a reasonably accurate single shot rifle with a somewhat limited distance; whereas the traditional MZ rifles with loose powder a patch and ball and smooth bore and iron sights are somewhat less accurate and have less range. So if a hunter wants the early season advantage, (usually but not always those season are prior to the rifle hunt) they have to use the traditional method vs the modern method. I am ok with that thinking. I am also ok with the ONT MNRF thinking that this new firearm is a MZ rifle. That's their call.

I do not know the rules/regs for other provinces. I know in ONT the archery season for deer is quite long, crossbows allowed. Some would argue a Crossbow is not "bow hunting" I know Crossbows are not allowed in some states for archery season. Again, thats the individual governing body making a decision.

Where I live there are 2 x 1 week MZ deer seasons. Most other areas of the province have 1 week. It is after the rifle hunt, so there is no advantage unlike places that allow traditional MZ hunts prior to the rifle hunt.

I'm ok with everyone having an opinion. When hunting though, the MNRF opinion of what I can use is what interests me the most.
 
Bigbubba said:
... I know in ONT the archery season for deer is quite long, crossbows allowed....
Click to expand...

Did you hear Ontario MNR was discussing banning the use of scopes on crossbows a few years back. This was an article in Ontario Out of Doors magazine.

In my area (eastern Ont) I am beginning to see more deer during muzzleloader week than regular rifle weeks (some years none at all). Hence my interest in muzzleloaders. Is global warming causing the rutting time to shift?
 
I admit to have drunk the kool aid and in WMU 92 here in Ontario use a "modern" muzzleloader for deer during the controlled hunt. Bought a CVA Wolf featuring removable breach plug, scope, 209 primer. I personally feel it is a single shot rifle, good for deer at up to 150 yards. I also use a crossbow in WMU 94 and it features a red dot.

That being said, after I bought my deer tag I went online for the "extra" tags and noted that in 94, 93, 92, and many other SW Ontario WMU there were at least 1000 extra tags (archery) available. 99.9% sure there are deemed to be an excessive number of deer (antlered and antlerless) in SW Ontario. While I have been buying two tags per year for many years, I have never filled my second tag (it just lets me hunt deer until Dec 31st even if I fill my SG/ML tag).

I personally have no issues with using any legal method of deer hunting as per the regulations. I would hope that more ethical shots would be taken. For example, my smoothbore Ithaca 37 patterns well up to 50 yards with rifled slugs, but I would not be comfortable taking a 100 yard shot with it. My Mossberg 835 with a 24" rifled barrel can keep 100% of my shots on a pie plate at 100 yards with Hornady SST sabots. Suffice to say my Ithaca 37 stays home during the shotgun hunt these days.

I saw the Nitrofire when it first came out and my reaction was not "it's a game changer" (since to me not that different than my CVA Wolf with pellets and saboted pistol projectiles) but "where do I buy the "ammo" when they stop making it?" How many 25 caliber rimfires are still being used? The 5mm Remington Magnum ammo was not available for something like 20+ years until Aguila recently started making ammo again for it. With most centerfire rifles if someone can't get commercial ammo you can hand load it (like 303 Savage). But for rimfire and for the Nitrofire, if ammo is not commercially available, then I'm not sure what you do. I would guess that some clever soul would come up with a way to make new ammo for the Nitrofire (3D print a holder, couple Triple 7 pellets I guess) but relying on one company to make the ammo for it does not leave me with confidence (how's the Knight Disc system working out for y'all? I guess 3rd party manufacturers still make it).

My $0.02 and it's probably not even worth that much these days with no more pennies available.
 
I agree. If the Nitro fire doesn't catch a large following, they very well may quit making the "ammo" in which case some will be left holding the bag unless they stock up.

Might be better to stick with 777 pellets, 209 primers and sabots.

Time will tell
 
fingers284 said:
That doesnt change my mind, a bullet alone in a muzzleloader doesn't constitute a loaded gun even for vehicle travel...it aint loaded until the primer is installed & in this case the primer & propellant is breach loaded in a cartridge.
Click to expand...

Actually you are incorrect. You need to look at both provincial and federal laws with regard to this.
 
Waterfowler said:
Actually you are incorrect. You need to look at both provincial and federal laws with regard to this.
Click to expand...

Enlighten me pls. In Ab muzzleloader not considered loaded until primer installed and fed law is "no loaded firearms at all in a vehicle at any time as far as I know...neither one says loading a bullet from the muzzle constitutes a muzzleloader regardless of how powder charge is introduced.
 
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