Long Range 22LR 300 yards +, transonic zone, ammo characteristics and quality

Hey all,
I thought I'd start this thread after posting in another that I thought most people overstate the effects of the transonic zone.
I was hoping we could use this space to discuss long range 22lr shooting (300-600 yards +) and some of the things you guys see as challenges whether it be wind, velocities, ammo quality or design, the transonic zone etc.
Of course this conversation can vary with the intended purpose (practical style shooting vs utmost accuracy potential & groups). Feel free to discuss 1 or all questions below.

1) Do you guys see problems with accuracy due to transonic turbulence or is the wind and ammo quality a much bigger issue?

2) Has anyone witnessed bullets stable at 50 yards tumbling at 300+?

3) If ammo had the exact same level of initial accuracy, quality, consistency, BC etc, and the only difference was subsonic (say 1070 fps) vs supersonic (say 1435 fps) would you see the same accuracy at extended ranges? Or would one be better than the other and why?

4) Is wind the biggest factor or ammo consistency? We see a lot of wind in the prairies, so wind is always a factor.

5) How much are you guys seeing for vertical dispersion at extended ranges (300+) due to wind changes? And how to you compensate, or do you just rely on ballistic calculators?

6) Do you create custom profiles in your ballistic calculators? Or do you find they match up well at extended ranges, say 300 - 600 yards? What drag curves are you using?

7) Do you guys see 22lr accuracy as a bit of a crapshoot due to the rabbit hole of ammo and changing environmental conditions 1 month or even day apart?

8) For practical style shooting, is decent ammo good enough (eg CCI SV), or will only the best (eg Lapua) suffice?

9) What is your idea of acceptable accuracy at 300 yards, 1, 2, 3 MOA? And what so you feel is consistently achievable, 1, 2, 3 MOA?

10) What kind of ES/SD numbers are you getting?

Let's keep it civil and try to learn from other experiences. I will try to eventually update this initial post with more questions, ideas and consensus.

300 yards is nothing

The biggest problem is the fact that you can't handload .22lr

So you are ultimately limited by ammunition consistency and quality, which are beyond your control

ELR guys are shooting 500-600yards+ with .22lr, go watch any vudoo video on this subject
 
By design, or accident, the .22LR cartridge and bullet seem to max out for consistent accuracy at about 50m/yards. Beyond that, there appear to be random effects on bullet flight that open up groups very wide. Add wind that is variable and groups are very big, which is just the reality of light slow projectiles being pushed around by swirling wind.

At 50m/yards, matches are won and lost on ammo inconsistency within the same lot. We have all experienced the rounds that drop like a stone down into the 8 or 7 ring when the recoil in the reticle recoil indicated it should have been a 10 ring hit. And we see the screamer round that shoots high into the upper 8 or 7 ring, again with the recoil of the reticle indicating that was impossible, but yet it happened. This round to round inconsistency and the geometry of angles just magnifies the spread with distance beyond 50m.

But I hypothesize that the target spread we see at longer ranges is more than just trajectory from angles from the muzzle. I hypothesize that the .22 LR bullet suffers from poor aerodynamics and therefore what we see at distance is a sort of knuckle ball effect at increasing distance - there are random erratic movements of the bullet in flight because of the crudeness of its design, with its huge cannelure rings and blunt stubby shape, soft nose sometimes with micro nicks and dents, gobs of lube, heeled end, and the concave rear end.

Hypothesis: Basically the .22LR bullet aerodynamically sucks beyond 50m, and the cartridge design by accident prevents factory manufacturing consistency for tight ES and SD.

This is one of the most thoughtful posts on this forum in a while. There are very real limits on .22LR accuracy, to use the term generically.

It has been reliably estimated that in testing facility conditions ten-shot groups at 50 m increase on average by a factor of about 2.8 times at 100 m. In other words, on average ten-shot group size at 50m are 2.8 times the size at 100. Of course some rifle/ammo combinations will be a little better, some a little worse.

What that means is that .22LR accuracy is not linear. That is to say, group size doesn't simply double as distance doubles. Instead it gets worse as distance increases. If a minimum average group size increase is a factor of 2.8 (on average) as distance doubles from 50 to 100, if that factor remained valid for 100 to 200 then a 0.5" ten shot groups at 50 becomes, on average, 1.4" at 100 and 3.9" at 200 meters.

What makes .22LR even more challenging as distance increases, there's no reason to expect the factor would remain as low as 2.8 beyond 100 meters. All the factors that conspire to make ten-shot groups increase in size by a factor of 2.8 between 50 and 100, are still at work and would very likely produce results that see an increase on average over a factor of 2.8.

Since .22LR performance is not linear, but only gets worse as distance increases, long distance shooters have been more than receptive to possible solutions to the long distance accuracy dilemma.

One of these have been offered in the form of faster twist barrels discussed briefly earlier.

Another has been novel ammo, such as the user-reloaded Cutting Edge bullets, about which posters on this forum were quite enthusiastic when their existence was publicized almost two years ago. Unfortunately, the Cutting Edge bullets, using CCI supplied pre-primed casings, don't appear to have produced affordable or significant practical benefit. Even "regular" ammo makers such as SK have introduced within the last few years ammo marketed as for "long range" -- e.g. SK Long Rang Match. This ammo still retains all the shortcomings of previous varieties of SK .22LR ammo in terms of quality and MV and other variation, but is different only in its initial higher MV.

Biologist's hypothesizes 50 meters as the maximum distance for consistent accuracy.

Without a good rifle and suitable ammo consistent, sub-MOA accuracy at 50 meters is a challenge. But as the 50 yard "1/2 inch challenge" on this forum shows it's doable with relatively modest rifles and non-lot tested ammo -- at least from time to time. Of course, it's often difficult to produce consistent performance.

Neverteless, and here I disagree somewhat with the hypothesis of Biologist, it is possible at 100 yards/meters to have consistent sub-MOA accuracy with .22LR. At least three things are required. One is a very capable rifle. Another is excellent ammo, usually not randomly selected. A third is either an absence of wind or effective accounting for wind by the superlative use of wind flags.

Beyond 100 yards, consistent accuracy is too much subject to the vagaries of ammo consistency -- both in MV variation and otherwise -- and the unavoidable problems of winds when shooting outdoors, where even the slightest movement of air masses between muzzle and target make itself sorely obvious on target.
 
You have made this non linear accuracy degradation claim many times over the years... I don't know where this was stated but I have seen no evidence with sub sonic ammunition to support such a blanket conclusion.

I would not be the least bit surprised that this study you are referring to was actually testing supersonic 22LR. In which case, I would tend to agree That brings us back to transonic issues.

If the accuracy degradation rate you claim was factual, this video would have had to have been shot at maybe 120 yards instead of 275 yards as it was.

Perhaps with a better scope I may have been able to spot the misses easier and made more sequential hits. There are a precious few scopes with worse glass than the scope being used here.

 
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I agree with you on watching bullets in flight. On an overcast day I routinely watch my bullets from about the 40-45 yard mark drop into the target. This is why my group I shoot with routinely ask me to spot. Its not hard but a learned art. I am however suprised in how many people believe in all the BS videos they see on the different forums. Anyway I wish everyone a merry Christmas.
 
You have made this non linear accuracy degradation claim many times over the years... I don't know where this was stated but I have seen no evidence with sub sonic ammunition to support such a blanket conclusion.

I would not be the least bit surprised that this study you are referring to was actually testing supersonic 22LR. In which case, I would tend to agree That brings us back to transonic issues.

If the accuracy degradation rate you claim was factual, this video would have had to have been shot at maybe 120 yards instead of 275 yards as it was.

Perhaps with a better scope I may have been able to spot the misses easier and made more sequential hits. There are a precious few scopes with worse glass than the scope being used here.


You either bravely or foolishly add to the mistakes you've made in this thread.

First you wrongly insisted that it wasn't poor ammo quality that caused the poor performance typical of most .22LR high velocity ammo. Second you wrongly claimed that it was the high velocity alone that caused the poor performance of that kind of ammo.

Now you complete a trifecta of mistakes by insisting that .22LR performance is not non-linear -- with, of course, the attendant view that .22LR accuracy must therefore be linear.

(If anyone is uncertain about what non-linear accuracy refers to, quite simply it means that group size more than doubles as distance doubles. Anyone who's found it relatively easy to shoot one hole groups at 25 yards only to find it much more challenging at 50 will understand the non-linear behaviour of .22LR; and what's not exceptionally difficult at 50 becomes much more so at 100.)

It's not my personal claim that .22LR accuracy is not linear. It's a well-established fact that .22LR performance gets worse as distance increases and that's not a secret. If you're unaware of that aspect of .22LR performance, it may be due to inexperience, a lack of understanding, or indifference -- or perhaps something else.

For a brief elaboration, when ammo performance at 50 and 100 meters at Lapua testing facilities is compared, the ten shot groups at 100 are on average 2.8 times the size of the exact same ammo performance at 50 meters. The figure of 2.8 the product of a comparison of results in Lapua testing facilities where results for the same ten shots are recorded electronically at both distances. The comparison is of apples to apples because it looks at performance for the exact same rounds of ammo at 50 and 100 meters in windless test tunnels with rifles shot from a fixture or vise.

In any case, as experienced .22LR shooters understand from first hand experience, performance gets worse as distance increases.

It's not clear what, if anything, the video reference is supposed to show or prove. The shooter hit and missed pop cans at 275 yards. Canadian pop cans are about 2.5" wide by 4.75" in height.
 
You have made this non linear accuracy degradation claim many times over the years... I don't know where this was stated but I have seen no evidence with sub sonic ammunition to support such a blanket conclusion.


If the accuracy degradation rate you claim was factual, this video would have had to have been shot at maybe 120 yards instead of 275 yards as it was.

Take your favourite ammo, shoot 50 rounds to one aimpoint at 25 yards, 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards (and so on as far as you'd like to go). Compare the spread at each distance, there's your evidence. I bet you won't do it because it'll prove grauhanen correct and yourself very much misguided. Your pop can video demonstrates nothing.
 
You have made this non linear accuracy degradation claim many times over the years... I don't know where this was stated but I have seen no evidence with sub sonic ammunition to support such a blanket conclusion.

I would not be the least bit surprised that this study you are referring to was actually testing supersonic 22LR. In which case, I would tend to agree That brings us back to transonic issues.

If the accuracy degradation rate you claim was factual, this video would have had to have been shot at maybe 120 yards instead of 275 yards as it was.

Perhaps with a better scope I may have been able to spot the misses easier and made more sequential hits. There are a precious few scopes with worse glass than the scope being used here.


May I speculate? Your background is engineering, just dealt with ya’ll lots is all.
 
Take your favourite ammo, shoot 50 rounds to one aimpoint at 25 yards, 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards (and so on as far as you'd like to go). Compare the spread at each distance, there's your evidence. I bet you won't do it because it'll prove grauhanen correct and yourself very much misguided. Your pop can video demonstrates nothing.

Quoted for truth. My experience says the same. Made me chuckle.
 

Indeed. Despite repeating a very common misconception about .22LR ammo, the article by Michael Shea, author of the recent book Rimfire Revolution, very ably describes just how challenging it is to hit targets that are for .22LR at extremely long ranges. As distance increases, accuracy becomes more and more challenging and that's because .22LR accuracy is non-linear. The reasons for the non-linear performance are another subject.
 
After reading a number of articles arrived at through this post and other's messages there are some questionable figures in respect to BC's for 22 rimfire.

One figure for Lapua was 0.172 a figure I had never seen before but later in the article. 0.142 was quoted.

The Sierra Infinity program Shows 0.14 for the Eley Match and 0.114 for Lapua. Hard to know who to believe.

Same with MIL and MOA. Which is more accurate? Takes me back to the arguments when the conversion from Fahrenheit to Centigrade in Canada.
Fahrenheit was argued to be more accurate as there were 180 degrees between freezing and boiling versus 100 for the metric equivalent.
The error in MOA is created by assuming 1" at 100 yards when it should be 1.047".
 
I have never been able to correlate the published BC's for .22 ammo directly to any of my rifles. After inputting the measured muzzle velocities into the ballistics software that I am using I will compare the dial-ups plotted to the actual DOPE for that particular rifle and ammo. Then I will adjust the BC value in the software to match the actual DOPE. I find myself using BC's of
.128 for Tenex/Match and from .133 to .137 for SK/Lapua. Are these values correct? I don't know. However, they are what I am forced to use to correlate the data.

As far as I am concerned regarding MILS or MOA, one system is no more accurate than the other. I use both. They are both systems of angular measurement. I don't try and think in a matter of inches or centimeters, respectively. All I concern myself with is the dial-up value and whether it's trued to the actual trajectory.

I am not as experienced as some on this forum so I am not here to argue right or wrong, just saying what works for me.
 
It's not clear what, if anything, the video reference is supposed to show or prove. The shooter hit and missed pop cans at 275 yards. Canadian pop cans are about 2.5" wide by 4.75" in height.

The video makes a clear point. If a 22 LR has a hard time holding 1 MOA at 100 yards, how it it possible to pretty much hold 1 MOA at 275 yards given the exponential accuracy degradation ratio you claim?

Perhaps you are suggesting my CZ 22 can hold 1/10 MOA at 100 if we do the math backwards?

What makes .22LR even more challenging as distance increases, there's no reason to expect the factor would remain as low as 2.8 beyond 100 meters. All the factors that conspire to make ten-shot groups increase in size by a factor of 2.8 between 50 and 100, are still at work and would very likely produce results that see an increase on average over a factor of 2.8.

According to your assertion, the group size at such a distance should result in perhaps one hit per box at such a distance. Instead the few misses can be attributed to mirage refraction, variations in wind speed and poor glass quality before they can be attributed to the accuracy degradation rate you repeatedly and quite confidently claim is somehow factual. I'm slamming my BS card right on top of it.

When you consider a group size of 1 MOA at 100 yards, a direct ratio results in roughly 2.75 inches at 275 yards. Add to that maybe a 20 FPS velocity spread and now you have an accuracy potential about the size of a pop can. This of coarse is based upon a linear correlation. I'm confident I could hit 10 cans in a row if I made the effort in calm conditions with overcast skies.

The only element that would create a non linear condition would be the unpredictable weather conditions over such a distance which easily accounts for the few close misses you see in the video.
 
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The video makes a clear point. If a 22 LR has a hard time holding 1 MOA at 100 yards, how it it possible to pretty much hold 1 MOA at 275 yards given the exponential accuracy degradation ratio you claim?

Perhaps you are suggesting my CZ 22 can hold 1/10 MOA at 100 if we do the math backwards?



According to your assertion, the group size at such a distance should result in perhaps one hit per box at such a distance. Instead the few misses can be attributed to mirage refraction, variations in wind speed and poor glass quality before they can be attributed to the accuracy degradation rate you repeatedly and quite confidently claim is somehow factual. I'm slamming my BS card right on top of it.

When you consider a group size of 1 MOA at 100 yards, a direct ratio results in roughly 2.75 inches at 275 yards. Add to that maybe a 20 FPS velocity spread and now you have an accuracy potential about the size of a pop can. This of coarse is based upon a linear correlation. I'm confident I could hit 10 cans in a row if I made the effort in calm conditions with overcast skies.

The only element that would create a non linear condition would be the unpredictable weather conditions over such a distance which easily accounts for the few close misses you see in the video.

I have yet to see anyone hold 1 MOA with 22LR at 200 yards. Performance is not linear. and cannot be. This is not difficult to understand for anyone, except you, it seems. Velocity variation shot-to-shot produces exponentially greater vertical dispersion with distance, not linear. Wind produces exponentially greater drift with distance, not linear. Flaws in the bullets fly off-track exponentially more with distance, not linear.

Let's superimpose a pop can sized box over a 50 shot group at 200 yards. Nearly 20 misses. About 60% of rounds would find their mark, the rest will miss and there is not a thing the shooter can do about it, other than select some better ammo.

 
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