Oliver Stark Round Action

[Cow Town Bill]

I started a thread about this interesting gun last week on the "show me your pics......." thread which now runs 230 pages or more. Although it is a most interesting thread its not so easy to find out about specific guns. By starting this new thread I'm hoping to get increased exposure and gain more info on this gunmaker, his history and his guns.
This gun has a Dickson round action which was confirmed last week in correspondence with the Dickson firm. Oliver Stark, his father, and brother worked for Dickson as skilled gunsmiths/stockers in the late 1800's and early 1900's. The Stark family immigrated to Brandon MB and opened a gun shop and sporting goods store about 1905. This gun has engraved on the rib "Oliver Stark & Son, Gun Makers, Brandon, Manitoba". The gun has 32" barrels which is unusual as Dickson tell me they never built a round action with 32" barrels. It is beautifully engraved and bears a distinctive gold maple leaf on the top lever.
Now for the interesting part: the gun does not have a serial number nor does it have proof marks. So how did it happen that a Dickson round action shotgun was made in Brandon---or was it really made in Brandon? Dickson tell me that they did not sell actions to the trade. Maybe the action was rejected by Dickson management and the Stark family collaborated with fellow tradesmen, and completed the gun on their own time and brought it to Brandon?
The gun was "discovered" in a small gun shop in Saskatchewan over 40 years ago by a collector in northern B C who still owns it. He did not "steal" it as the owner was very much aware of its uniqueness and value. However, the seller knew nothing of the Stark family or other Stark guns. The owner has called a number of Stark family members in the Brandon area who were only vaguely aware of the Stark gun shop.
I'm hoping that members of the CGN fraternity can bring forth information about other Stark guns and history of the Stark gun shop. You may PM me, if you wish confidentiality.

 

[canvasback]

Bill, it’s an interesting gun for sure. With some very positive attributes. But some real drawbacks as well.

While Dickson may have confirmed the action (and maybe more) started in their shop, the fact remains it is not a Dickson. And that hugely impacts it’s desirability. The other giant problem is the hole in the sole plate. Until that is assessed for the possibility of repair, and the rest of the action inspected for thinness, it’s a bit of a crap shoot unless someone wanted it as a curio. It’s a 12 gauge and 12 gauges aren’t setting new pricing records at the moment. I have a figure in mind for value AFTER having had it inspected for possibility of repair by my gunsmith. And I’m sure the owner wouldn’t like my number. lol.

On the other hand, it’s a round action (my favorite) with 32” barrels. Those don’t come along every day.

Is there any information as to how the hole occurred?

I’m really hoping someone surfaces with info on a second Oliver Stark gun. You might consider replicating your OP on Doublegun to cast a wider net.

 

[Cow Town Bill]

Bill, it’s an interesting gun for sure. With some very positive attributes. But some real drawbacks as well.

While Dickson may have confirmed the action (and maybe more) started in their shop, the fact remains it is not a Dickson. And that hugely impacts it’s desirability. The other giant problem is the hole in the sole plate. Until that is assessed for the possibility of repair, and the rest of the action inspected for thinness, it’s a bit of a crap shoot unless someone wanted it as a curio. It’s a 12 gauge and 12 gauges aren’t setting new pricing records at the moment. I have a figure in mind for value AFTER having had it inspected for possibility of repair by my gunsmith. And I’m sure the owner wouldn’t like my number. lol.

On the other hand, it’s a round action (my favorite) with 32” barrels. Those don’t come along every day.

Is there any information as to how the hole occurred?

I’m really hoping someone surfaces with info on a second Oliver Stark gun. You might consider replicating your OP on Doublegun to cast a wider net.

Thanks for your comments, Canvasback. The hole in the underside of the receiver is repairable (Marten Hagn), but certainly not an easy task.
I have a few leads that I must chase. Will let everyone know when I get interesting info. I'm holding back on doublegunbbs for the time being.

 

[cjdawe]

That is a beautiful gun and a very unique story what there is of it.
Pretty much anything is repairable Bill,it boils down to money or desire to go through it, forgive me I haven't gone through the entire thread .
Are you or the owner actively looking to sell or looking for someone for the repair ?or is this just a post showing off this fine old gun ....when I was considering an offer on this gun some time ago ,I dug up the same info you have not much more ,but nothing that would increase its potential value or desirability
Like James said it'll never realize Dickinson prices for the same reason I rather buy Heinz ketchup as opposed to the one with the No Name plain yellow label .
It is however one of the nicest guns I've come across in Canada

 

[Cow Town Bill]

That is a beautiful gun and a very unique story what there is of it.
Pretty much anything is repairable Bill,it boils down to money or desire to go through it, forgive me I haven't gone through the entire thread .
Are you or the owner actively looking to sell or looking for someone for the repair ?or is this just a post showing off this fine old gun ....when I was considering an offer on this gun some time ago ,I dug up the same info you have not much more ,but nothing that would increase its potential value or desirability
Like James said it'll never realize Dickinson prices for the same reason I rather buy Heinz ketchup as opposed to the one with the No Name plain yellow label .
It is however one of the nicest guns I've come across in Canada

The owner of the gun is a friend who isn't into computers. Purpose of the thread is to share info on an interesting gun with an intriguing Canadian background. And, hopefully find more about Oliver Stark and his guns.
J P Daeschler, the new owner of Dickson, contacted me about this gun as he read an old post of mine on another thread requesting info about the Stark gun.
Bill

 

[canvasback]

Bill, I don’t know if you are on Facebook but there are a number of interesting SxS oriented groups. One in particular is devoted largely to British Bests. The interesting thing is that a good proportion of the members work in the trade or are retired from working in the trade. Peter Nelson posts regularly. I believe Mr Daeschler is a member as well.

 

[thegunnut]

Tried to send Canvasback a pm, but it bounced back as his storage is full.
Sorry…. Only way I could think of to relay the info….

 

[canvasback]

Tried to send Canvasback a pm, but it bounced back as his storage is full.
Sorry…. Only way I could think of to relay the info….

CGN Sent me a message so i fixed it. Send away!

 

[Cow Town Bill]

I had an interesting discussion last week with a long time friend. He maintained a gun shop in the Brandon area for over 50 years and he is very much aware of the Oliver Stark name. He has seen one Birmingham made boxlock bearing the Oliver Stark name; but this is the only one he has seen, and never a round action. Over the years he has met at least one descendent of the Stark family but they were only vaguely aware of the Stark gunshop and hardware store.
I have an email into a friend in England who is very much active in the double gun scene and he will get back to me when he returns from his Christmas vacation in Canada---he's a brave man, indeed, to travel in this plague environment.

 

[David Henry]

I wondered if this gun would surface at some point, now that we have the convenience of the internet. I assume that the gun is still in the same hands of the owner who introduced it to me about 30 years ago. And based on his B.C residency this may indeed be the same fellow that shared some snap shots of the very same gun pictured in this post. I have long pondered its history and connection to Dickson's and whether the action came across the Atlantic in the white tucked away in the toe of a sock and was barreled in North America, and also if the Stark shop did such high quality work here in Canada. It is a true puzzle given the limited information we have at our disposal, if that gun could talk I think we would be well entertained. It is my hope that the young man who many many years ago ended up in Al Petersons shop with a broken leg looking for something to do while convalescing and ended up being a stock maker for Peterson has aged as well as the this round action he introduced to me. David.

 

[North of 58]

That is a very interesting piece of Canadian history the owner has. I'm not familiar with the Starks of Brandon, but if one of them had a first name that started with a J he might have had something to do with the stock on this 32" barreled, 3", 1924 manufacture, 12 ga Field Grade L.C. Smith of mine. I had posted it on the L.C. Smith collectors site and the experts thought the stock was original until I posted these pics. Quite a well done copy.
View attachment 549956

 

[Cow Town Bill]

Oliver Stark had a brother named James and it would appear that he stocked your L C Smith. Oliver's father was Oliver Stark Sr. All three Starks were Dickson tradesmen.
It is likely that all three Starks immigrated to the Brandon area.
Could you post a picture of the stock? I suspect that an Elsie with 32" barrels and 3" chambers is a fairly rare gun.

 

[North of 58]

Sorry, Bill. I can't find any photos of the full stock and I don't have the gun where I am right now. I've had it since 2006 and I lost most of my original photos years ago. I'll dig it out after I get back home after the holidays. It really isn't that rare. They aren't common, but many of the Long Range and Wildfowl models have 32" barrels and 3" chambers.

 

[Cow Town Bill]

Sorry, Bill. I can't find any photos of the full stock and I don't have the gun where I am right now. I've had it since 2006 and I lost most of my original photos years ago. I'll dig it out after I get back home after the holidays. It really isn't that rare. They aren't common, but many of the Long Range and Wildfowl models have 32" barrels and 3" chambers.

Sounds good.
Do you use your Elsie for waterfowling? Use bismuth?

 

[North of 58]

It gets out once in a while. I've also got a couple more Elsies, several Parkers, and three Foxes with 32" barrels. For ducks and geese if I'm not using a short 10 its either a Parker with 32 or 34" barrels more often than not. Some years back I bought a bunch of Kent Tungsten Matrix 3.5" 12 guage shells and broke them down for the shot. I've been loading that for a while and sometimes use 2 3/4" Kent TM factory if I'm confident in the strength of the shotgun's wood. They're pretty stout loads.