The return to the 9mm Luger for police in Canada

tokguy said:
I recall a discussion about 40's in the this very Handgun Forum a while back. For some reason the 'Jack of all trades' is a master of none. 9mm / 38's or 45's always seem to vanquish it.
The guys with big money in 40's are going to be enraged... but doesn't change the history of 40's flashing and then just....fading away...
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I thought in the early 1990s Canadian police agencies put out an extensive report extolling the virtues of 40 Smith. Because it was everything the 38 +P was supposed to be? A gun article I skimmed through at Milarm.
And really it shouldn't fade away. If the frame is built for it, those four plus inch something barreled compacts of late 1990s are very suitable for ten round capacity pistol.
Example: Sig once made this in perfect package then inexplicably dropped it from production.
 
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gdawg said:
Epps had a mountain of 180gr Ranger-T at $14/50. Many on-line dealers seem to have more stock in 40 and at the same or cheaper prices than 9mm.
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Man, it must have been a local sale or something - I don't see anything on the Epps website for that. For the .40, the only thing somewhat cheap on Epps is a box of 50 x Blazers for $19.99. Rest of it is priced in the mid $20 range and up, like everywhere else. Would definitely love to load up on .40 for cheaper than 9mm if I can find it near me for those bargoon prices. Heck, even if that Epps Ranger sale is local store, I would drive the 2 hours there to snatch some up for those prices
 
thegazelle said:
Man, it must have been a local sale or something - I don't see anything on the Epps website for that. For the .40, the only thing somewhat cheap on Epps is a box of 50 x Blazers for $19.99. Rest of it is priced in the mid $20 range and up, like everywhere else. Would definitely love to load up on .40 for cheaper than 9mm if I can find it near me for those bargoon prices. Heck, even if that Epps Ranger sale is local store, I would drive the 2 hours there to snatch some up for those prices
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It was listed on the site for a while. I ordered some, then bought a gun in 40 to shoot it, then ordered some more, lol. Now I wish I bought more of it.

$20/50 for both 9mm and 40 is pretty much the norm it seems. When I find stuff that I like for cheaper, I buy a little extra.
 
Brutus said:
I thought in the early 1990s Canadian police agencies put out an extensive report extolling the virtues of 40 Smith. Because it was everything the 38 +P was supposed to be? A gun article I skimmed through at Milarm.
And really it shouldn't fade away. If the frame is built for it, those four plus inch something barreled compacts of late 1990s are very suitable for ten round capacity pistol.
Example: Sig once made this in perfect package then inexplicably dropped it from production.
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Oh, I see nothing wrong with 40 somethings. Got a couple old one's.
But trying to get the public to try to adopt them is another thing.
Always thought of them as a bit of a niche thing... perhaps even a specialists tool.
Joe Average doesn't seem to have much love for them though. A little brisk and expensive when a 9mm will do 80% of the 40's capabilities...but cheaper, easier to source... well everything in 9mm.
Everyday carry... you know it's going to the 9 x 19. An enthusiast might pack a 40...but Joe Average isn't going to.
If you knew that a situation might occur... bump in the night. Open the safe and grab the best tool in your chest... if there is a 45 in there, I'd bet 90% will grab it first.
This is not new, rewind the clock. 38-40, 41 LC and 38-40 in the charcoal era. Why did they fail to gain traction? Better than 38's... almost as good as 44's and 45's.
Because they really don't appeal to Joe Average. He might toss a 38 in his waist band or glovebox... it'll do for just in case.
But when something goes bump in the night, 45 is better. Or 44 something in a Wheelgun.
Professionals might see the benefits of a 40, better capacity than a 45, more Zang than a 9mm... but they are a niche thing and kinda always have been.
41 LC, obsolete
38-40, close to it
41 magnum, who here has even seen one?
10mm seems pretty obscure
40 Smiths, well LE forces 'were' using them.
People trained on them might like them, Joe Average doesn't seem fond of them. Too brisk, too noisy and they are penetrators... perhaps too much so. Blowing through the bad guy isn't always Plan A. Sometimes it's better to not have a through and through shot... family in another room? It might be said that is why 357 magnums or SIG's fail to topple the 38 special or 9 x19 as most prolific overall.
Merely my ponderings.
That and 2$ will get you a coffee.
Cheers on a cool morning.
 
tokguy not so fast padna. You are getting way ahead of yourself.

Of the cartridge's you just listed I'll speak to two. The 41LC and 41Short Colt while obsolete really only fell silent when smokeless powder showed up. The Short Colt. while popular among the "Ladies of the Evening" worked well in Derringers but as laws tightened exercising their 2nd Amendment rights to defend their honour ended the cartridges popularity. It also suffered from the same malady the Long Colt did. Colt never really ever decided on the size of the barrel diameter. It was popular among some police agencies, in the SE US. Mine has since been converted to 38Long Colt. In it's day the 41LC with a diameter of .386 was considered a better caliber than the 38 Long and 38spl with a diameter of .357. The heel based bullet performed well but lost out to the popular 38spl and the S&W revolvers.

The 10MM seems to be gaining some interest with Ruger making their GP-100, I have one, and S&W now making their M&P in 10MM along with their revolver.

Notice though, that Police Departments are moving to the 9MM or remaining with their 40 cal guns based on financial considerations. Has nothing to do with performance. The same gains in bullet design that have improved the 9MM performance has also benefited the 40cal guns. One can argue all day as to which caliber "is best". Using the old reports on 'One shot" performance the .357mag ruled the roost if I remember correctly. I doubt there are many departments still carrying the .357. For those who champion the old .45acp it's ratings were middle of the pack as I recall well below the 9MM and 40cal.

Personally I don't put much value on what one department or what military are carrying. A major part of the LEO decisioning is "cost" driven when it comes to gun and caliber. Very little to do with performance. Both the 9MM and 40 will kill humans. Dead is dead...I guess.

I, on the other hand mostly buy guns to meet a need for my shooting sports either IDPA, IPSC, Trap. 2 Gun, Action Shooting Canada and .22LR Action shooting. I am not a member of IPSC but do shoot the odd club match. I also have to admit I buy more of my guns based upon advertising via Gun writers articles. I am also influenced as well by TV. I admit to having a bit of Walter Mitty in me and lastly just for fun.

I suppose defending ones caliber choice or arguing the merits of one caliber over another might cause some folks #####es to grow when ones caliber is chosen over another. Mine hardly moves. :>)

I only own three 40/10MM guns now. They work and are more powerful than my 9MM guns by a lot. Pull the trigger on two identical guns, one in 9MM and the other in 40cal and you know which gun was the 40. You may be to early in announcing the 40's passing. I would suggest it may well be around for awhile yet.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck, you are an enthusiast. You have admitted it, friend, you follow a lot of shooting disciplines, perhaps your shooting has evolved you to past 'Having a feel' for Joe Average.
Therefore a 40 would appeal to you.
My point being, they never really catch hold in the general Public's eye.
They require more discipline than Joe Average has. Go to a public, for pay range and see how many choose 9 x 19 over 40 S & W.
9 x 19's are fun to plink with, as are 38 specials, 45 ACP & 45LC's.
357 magnums are lively as are the big brother 44 RM... guys who've never tried a 'Big Gun' and want to make noise try them.
As far as best, I agree with you...subjective to each individual.
Merely me pondering on a cold morning.
I have 38 LC, 38 spl, 41 LC and 45 LC. 9 x 23 Steyr ( got a 9 x 19 bbl too) is the Auto flavour... bit of a Luddite that way I am.
41 LC is cool, it's lively and outdoes same era 38 easily. Mine is a .405 bore IIRC
Joe Public possessing scant skills is going for a 9 x 19, 38 Spl or 45 ACP. No source, just an opinion... they are easy to master and one can pick up cartridges pretty much anywhere. 38-40, 10mm, 40 S & W & 41 magnum ( You missed reasoning why it is languishing BTW)... not so lucky finding shells at the gas station for those.
38 special is a Milquetoast round unless you go police+...but 45's of pretty much all stripes have a great rep for 'putting the target down'. Personally I liked the story ( without a source, that's all it is of course) about the Texas trooper with a Thumbuster SAA in 45 LC as backup in door panel of the patrol car...why? I guess because it always works.
Rounds that are perpetrators are lively, noisy and generally expensive. I don't even like 357 magnum, too darn noisy with sharp recoil impulse... not enjoyable.
As I stated, merely an opinion on a cold morning. No expert here, not even an enthusiast, just enjoy the reading of and usage of good guns.
Cheers, stay warm
 
Some of us value a certain cartridge because it almost speaks to you in its specific little niche.

Why else do we have a multitude of varmint/deer cartridges?
Why else do some of us seek out a wildcat rifle cartridge?
Normal can be boring folks. Go with what u desire. Within reason of course.
 
Brutus said:
Some of us value a certain cartridge because it almost speaks to you in its specific little niche.

Why else do we have a multitude of varmint/deer cartridges?
Why else do some of us seek out a wildcat rifle cartridge?
Normal can be boring folks. Go with what u desire. Within reason of course.
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Oh, I am not the worst for Niche stuff, sure not the best. I glance at more than read replies sometimes...but note, I've admitted to 2 oddball's in the last three replies...that's all I've admitted to...yet...
The oddball that I've always wanted in a pistol... 32-20... good choice to pick eh?
 
I still think dirty harry's good old .44 would be best cop gun...so what if you get a little collateral damage?....(1) shot and it will blow your head 'clean 0ff" end of the bad guy...100% guaranteed officer safety
 
thegazelle said:
I have one gun that shoots .40 and I have tried to load up on .40 ammo over the years. Seems like it is never on sale, except for a couple of months ago when Tenda had the Remington LE line of .40 Golden Sabers on sale for like half-off. But definitely the selection at most stores is pretty sparse. I was able to pick up some Syntech .40 in 165gr I believe. It does seem like 9mm is the standard default for everything now. I can't see the LE issued service weapons flipping back to .40 anytime soon - .40 may eventually be a niche market down the road for the consumer as well.
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9 mm is more popular … I’ve seen 40 cal around more often on otherwise empty shelves … prices for everything are high though and no selection to choose from.
 
Brutus said:
I suspect there will be a brief trend of 'surplus' 40 Smith ammo out there.
Same as when various agencies went from 38 Special +P to an automatic pistol cartridge.
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If memory serves … some surplus 40 cal Glocks were cheaper guns a couple years ago.
 
City Boy said:
9 mm is more popular … I’ve seen 40 cal around more often on otherwise empty shelves … prices for everything are high though and no selection to choose from.
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Yup, that is what I see - despite the apparent lack of popularity, the prices remain high for .40 ammo overall just like everything else. The good news is, there is the occasional deal on the EE where a previous owner of a .40 gun has gotten rid of it and just wants to get rid of .40 ammo
 
Canuck44 said:
Notice though, that Police Departments are moving to the 9MM or remaining with their 40 cal guns based on financial considerations. Has nothing to do with performance. The same gains in bullet design that have improved the 9MM performance has also benefited the 40cal guns. One can argue all day as to which caliber "is best". Using the old reports on 'One shot" performance the .357mag ruled the roost if I remember correctly. I doubt there are many departments still carrying the .357. For those who champion the old .45acp it's ratings were middle of the pack as I recall well below the 9MM and 40cal.

Personally I don't put much value on what one department or what military are carrying. A major part of the LEO decisioning is "cost" driven when it comes to gun and caliber. Very little to do with performance. Both the 9MM and 40 will kill humans. Dead is dead...I guess.

I, on the other hand mostly buy guns to meet a need for my shooting sports either IDPA, IPSC, Trap. 2 Gun, Action Shooting Canada and .22LR Action shooting. I am not a member of IPSC but do shoot the odd club match. I also have to admit I buy more of my guns based upon advertising via Gun writers articles. I am also influenced as well by TV. I admit to having a bit of Walter Mitty in me and lastly just for fun.

I suppose defending ones caliber choice or arguing the merits of one caliber over another might cause some folks #####es to grow when ones caliber is chosen over another. Mine hardly moves. :>)

I only own three 40/10MM guns now. They work and are more powerful than my 9MM guns by a lot. Pull the trigger on two identical guns, one in 9MM and the other in 40cal and you know which gun was the 40. You may be to early in announcing the 40's passing. I would suggest it may well be around for awhile yet.

Take Care

Bob
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sorry Bob, but you're wrong. Performance is the #1 reason for the change, modern 9mm defensive ammo performs at least as good as the best 40, and lately, far better. The next consideration is cost related, mostly, at least in the programs I've witnessed, the cost of maintenance of the guns. 40s wear out faster, enough so that it made budgetary sense to bin them all and get new 9mms. The guns cost the same to purchase, be it 9mm or 40, but the 9s last longer, considerably so. Next, ammo, 9mm is significantly cheaper and it's easier to shoot, scores have gone up in every department doing the switch and not just a little, but a lot. So while those cost things seem like a big deal, costs would be easily absorbed if 40 performed better, but it doesn't.
 
Canuck44 said:
John Parson's "Custom Reloading" reloads for the Federal Penitentiary Service in BC or did so it can't be that much of a liability concern.

Take Care

Bob
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I think you are misinformed. I've been involved in procuring the ammunition for the Correctional Service of Canada for nearly 20 years and we are not permitted to shoot reloaded ammunition.
There hasn't been a penitentiary service since 1978.

Perhaps there was a back room deal at some point and someone back channelled a local deal for some extra rounds?
 
Rob with all due respect the first thing out of everyone's mouth is how inexpensive 9MM is vs 40cal. The same improvements in bullet design attributed to the 9MM are also used in the 40cal. Bigger is better. I have discussed this at great length with a Homicide Detective in California. While he agreed dead is dead the wounds generated by the 40 cal were significantly different than those by the 9MM. HIs info was gleaned from attending autopsies. Given his experience after witnessing hundreds of them I'll go with his experience.

We have about 150 shooting deaths a year due to handguns. Do you really think Canadian Police, Abbotsford, have anywhere near the experience he has?

The 9MM kills just as effectively as the 40 cal with less recoil due to the size of the cartridge and the heavier barreled 9MM vs the same weight of gun in .40cal. Woman RCMP officers in general, from what I have observed struggle to handle the 9MM , I can't imagine how they would manage the 40cal. Making the move to the 9MM makes sense if you are going to hire 110lb females for LEO street work. They do look pretty though carrying the Grey Cup every year along side Sgt. Singh or Sgt Preston. The RCMP is an equal opportunity employer.

The 9MM is less expensive to use and if you are a City Controller or a Police Chief who want to maximize his or her budget to want the 9MM vs 40cal. If you are a gun manufacturer the conversion from 40 cal to 9MM represents an increase in sales.

If I can drive a 10MM bullet aka .401cal as fast as a 9MM, I'll take the larger bullet because I have the budget to afford to shoot the .40cal in situations where I might need the killing power*. I play games with the 9MM its a fun little cartridge. :>)

Take Care

Bob
*We have vicious cardboard up here.
 
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