The return to the 9mm Luger for police in Canada

F= M x V

40SW: 180gr x 1000fps = ? with 45 round carry.
9mm: 147gr x 1000fps = ? with 51 round carry.

Both with same model of bullet. Which will have better performance?
Parts replacement usually provided by manufacturer.
There will always be a bottom 10-20% of crappy shooter no matter the calibre.
Maybe police could convert to .22LR so as to not intimidate the current crop of accommodated Nancys, while being cheaper, blah blah. Let’s convert some of the estrogen with testosterone.


:d
 
koldt said:
F= M x V

40SW: 180gr x 1000fps = ? with 45 round carry.
9mm: 147gr x 1000fps = ? with 51 round carry.

Both with same model of bullet. Which will have better performance?
Parts replacement usually provided by manufacturer.
There will always be a bottom 10-20% of crappy shooter no matter the calibre.
Maybe police could convert to .22LR so as to not intimidate the current crop of accommodated Nancys, while being cheaper, blah blah. Let’s convert some of the estrogen with testosterone.


:d
Click to expand...

Since we are talking handguns would it actually make a difference if shot placement is correct?
 
EC said:
Since we are talking handguns would it actually make a difference if shot placement is correct?
Click to expand...

Of course. A 22 to the coconut is better than a 10mm to the forearm.

Carry a lot more ammo too. Obviously if shot in the same location, more force is always better.

Less force applied is a poor answer for lack of proper training. Remember; qualifying is not training .
 
koldt said:
Of course. A 22 to the coconut is better than a 10mm to the forearm.

Carry a lot more ammo too. Obviously if shot in the same location, more force is always better.

Less force applied is a poor answer for lack of proper training. Remember; qualifying is not training .
Click to expand...

Or it might be said the 'Enough properly applied force is Enough...'
Trends come and go...seems like this one has 'Left the Building'
Never shot a .40 or a 10mm...but I have shot a couple others. Never have been a fan of magnum handguns... I can see CO officers going for a 40 or 10... but they do deal with animals a teensy bit bigger and tougher than people.
Flame away on a boring night though.
 
koldt said:
Of course. A 22 to the coconut is better than a 10mm to the forearm.

Carry a lot more ammo too. Obviously if shot in the same location, more force is always better.

Less force applied is a poor answer for lack of proper training. Remember; qualifying is not training .
Click to expand...

I wasn't referring to a 22. I was referring to the difference between a 40 cal and 9 mm which you mentioned in your post. If shot placement is the same ie in the vitals the difference between a 9mm and 40 cal is moot.
 
EC said:
I wasn't referring to a 22. I was referring to the difference between a 40 cal and 9 mm which you mentioned in your post. If shot placement is the same ie in the vitals the difference between a 9mm and 40 cal is moot.
Click to expand...

As it is with a 22.

It’s an analogy.
 
koldt said:
As it is with a 22.

It’s an analogy.
Click to expand...

We are obviously talking about two different things. This thread is about Agencies returning to the 9mm, not a 22. Might as well throw knives into the mix as well.

It's an analogy
 
If a .22LR is shot in the same “vitals”, the differences between a .22, 9mm and 40SW are moot.

If that needs explaining (which you asked about), explaining will do no good.
 
i shoot 9mm because I like it, cost, and it works...if police all started shooting 45acp, I would still shoot 9mm. I do not need to have what police have, nor rails, lights, or any other tacticool crap the market is pushing these days, just a good pistol in 9mm, and a decent holster for the range. The rest of my money buys ammo in 22lr, 9mm, and 3030. lol
 
Canuck44 said:
Use of the word "you" was not directed at you personally. I could have used "somebody" instead in that sentence.

The difficulty in discussing this topic is there does not seem to be any Government tracking of police shootings at the National level and from the one study I will refer to in this post one gets the impression police forces in general are not particularly forthcoming when it comes to reporting much of anything but that comment is based on a very thin and quick assessment by me. See pages 12 - 15 regarding who provided information to the authors of the report quoted below. It could be the various forces publish data feely for the public. The cursory search by me may well have missed the reports.

Wiki may not be your first choice but the following seems to be a credible source for some information "Police Use of Force in Canada: A Review of Data, Expert Opinion, and the International Research Literature. The report is quite lengthily and anyone interested in reading it are free to do so. There are enough stats in the report to allow the reader to draw any amount of evidence to justify ones thoughts on the matter. But, Sir, you seemed to think my use of Wiki lessoned the value of the information when in fact whoever drew the information on police shootings that I quoted got the information likely from the same source or from the CBC, an organization that attempts to track police lethal shootings. I know we all have our views of the CBC but somoetimes the media is the only organization that attempts to keep a check on Government actions.

Readers of this post and thread might want to take a quick peak at the report I found. The information is there and you can draw your own conclusions. From 2000 to 2020 Alberta had only 95 incidents where police shot and killed their assailants. This is an average of 4.75 per year. One year there was none another 10. My conclusion is there are not that many. What might be of interest is the number of shootings per million has almost doubled across Canada over the period. Another stat that caught my eye was the fact American police are 3 times more likely to use deadly force than Canadian police based upon shootings per million population. (Pages 24-28).

Some agencies appear to be more energetic than others when it comes to replying to the authors of the report. In reporting physical integrations with the public. (Pages 29-31). In 2019 Calgary reported 939 incidents while Edmonton reported 3,926 . Either Calgary is a way more violent city or Edmonton Police are more violent them Calgary police or the two departments used different criteria. On a national basis Edmonton is the outlier. I am a skeptic. I doubt either stat means much and I certainly think either all the other police departments took the request seriously or Edmonton was more eager to get the stats out there.

For those interested in exploring this information the report I quoted seems to be the most academic as in objective I could find. There likely are others I just am not prepared to spend the time and energy to look further. I am and have been convinced the police forces in Canada do not reflect what goes on in the US or that there is any desire by our police to hurt the citizens they are charged to protect.

Take Care

Bo
PS It occurred to me the reported information by Edmonton might have been given at the same time they were looking for new pistols. Coincidence.......
Click to expand...

The FBI did not full circle back to 9mm for no reason. 9mm outperforms 40 in all categories…
 
What happened to the conclusions of the previous FBI document that could not be questioned, from back in the late 80s?

"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock"
of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The
bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid
bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the
1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and
reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound
by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs
from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the
bigger bullet."

Handgun Wounding Factors And Effectiveness
FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit
Agent Urey Patrick 1989
 
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