So ive been reading alot lately about spanish best sidelocks and live pigeon guns are mentioned often. They are often described as having a wider thicker action. Im curious as to how the barrels are joined and fitted? Is there just more space as in more metal between the barrels or are the barrels just thicker? If so are they regulated in the same manner as double rifles which have a far greater spread between the barrels at the muzzle? Ive never held one to inspect one myself but have lately been very interested in them. Or are they simply a more ornate magnum wildfowling gun ?
Live pigeon guns
- Thread starter brybenn
- Start date
I am not 100 percent sure about this, but I think the difference is in the frame. Its just a bit heavier as in, less material has been taken off. I think the barrels are the same essentially. There may also be a hidden 3rd fastener and side-clips to bolster the action, but the Spanish guns look pretty similar to me.
I am referring to the AyA #1 vs the #53 for example.
I am referring to the AyA #1 vs the #53 for example.
Is the 56 not the larger AyA? Maybe im misunderstanding when i read the action is wider. I assumed with the standard side clips if the action was wider there would be more area between the sideclips hence my confusion of how the barrels sat. I guess a better clearer question is if the firing pin holes are standard distance apart or if theyre further set apart?
For shotguns used in live pigeon shooting, the guns tended to have long barrels (30 inches) on the ones I saw. The side x sides were heavier, think duck gun and not a light game gun. All were tightly choked. Back in the day, you would have seen Purdeys, Holland and Hollands, Winchester 21s plus a bunch of other nice ones. O/Us were Fabbris, Brownings, Perazzis, and similar guns. I never saw a pump or auto used.
The loads were similar to the old standard express 12 gauge loads of 1 1/4 oz and 3 1/4 drams, usually 7 shot in the ones I saw years ago. Guys would use the pigeon loads for Anne Oakley games too.
The loads were similar to the old standard express 12 gauge loads of 1 1/4 oz and 3 1/4 drams, usually 7 shot in the ones I saw years ago. Guys would use the pigeon loads for Anne Oakley games too.
gunrunner100
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- NW Ontario
I had a Parker 0 frame in 20 gauge for a time, with 30 inch barrels. Not knowing much about it, I was told that it was a "Live Bird" gun due to no safety and longer barrels.
With SxS, as previously noted they are big, heavy, long barreled, tightly choked guns typically with no safety. Made for shooting a lot of rounds with a lot of money on the line. There are still big live pigeon shoots happening, under the radar, where prize money is often in the 6 figure range.
Yeah, sorry. I "think" the #53 is the heavy version of the #2 and the #56 is the heavy version of the #1.
Interesting about the safety...I am told, my great grandfather shot live pigeon back in the day with a 12ga Tobin. He won a kind of medallion for 99/100 birds that my uncle now has. My Dad has the gun...the safety is disconnected.
Dad said the story goes, he missed the one bird because he left the safety on...It was made a safety delete after that shoot..LOL
Ive been reading alot and watched the holts video about live pigeon guns and what is expected of them as well as their features compared to wildfowlers. Some of the spanish greats used hammered pigeon guns as well. Seems majority of them are rather cost prohibitive
Rich guys betting big money. They didn't buy the cheap stuff.
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There is an interesting book on this subject written by Cyril Adams called Live Pigeon Trap Shooting. Its available from Briley's in Houston.
I don't have this book nor do I have a live pigeon gun. Maybe one day.
Bill
I don't have this book nor do I have a live pigeon gun. Maybe one day.
Bill
There are a few around but they often fly under the radar. Because they have long barrels (typically 30” - 32”) and heavy proofs and are often quite plain although impeccably made they are frequently mistaken for waterfowl or pigeon hunting guns. Features to watch for…
Heavy action/frame
Third fastener
Wide flat textured ( cross filed ) rib
Wings (side clip reinforcements)
Reinforced action at the table/ standing breech angle
Stout heavyweight barrels
Tight chokes, usually both barrels
Heavy but well balanced gun, usually 8 lb+
Manual safety, disabled safety or no safety, no provision for one.
Heavy proofs, usually 1 1/4 oz, sometimes more
Original 2 3/4” or 3” chambers
Boswell and Greener as well as others made a specialty of these fine guns and they show up the most.
They can open some eyes on a trap range if operated by an experienced shooter.
I have a friend in Vancouver who has two Greener boxlock and one Boswell hammer gun, a William Ford boxlock and a Grant that were all made as live pigeon guns. He shoots trap, especially International Trap often with one or another and no, not for sale.
Heavy action/frame
Third fastener
Wide flat textured ( cross filed ) rib
Wings (side clip reinforcements)
Reinforced action at the table/ standing breech angle
Stout heavyweight barrels
Tight chokes, usually both barrels
Heavy but well balanced gun, usually 8 lb+
Manual safety, disabled safety or no safety, no provision for one.
Heavy proofs, usually 1 1/4 oz, sometimes more
Original 2 3/4” or 3” chambers
Boswell and Greener as well as others made a specialty of these fine guns and they show up the most.
They can open some eyes on a trap range if operated by an experienced shooter.
I have a friend in Vancouver who has two Greener boxlock and one Boswell hammer gun, a William Ford boxlock and a Grant that were all made as live pigeon guns. He shoots trap, especially International Trap often with one or another and no, not for sale.
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Warning: literary digression.
That surprises me a bit, though I guess it shouldn't, my thought was they died out with the era of Annie Oakley. In fact when I was taking an English course in uni, I got in a big argument with the rest of the class over the meaning of EE Cummings' poem titled "Buffalo Bill's." The entire class except me thought that the pigeons referred to were the clay variety whereas I remembered tales of the live shoots of Bill's days, which thought changed the meaning of the poem considerably. The prof actually put the poem on the final exam where I carefully outlined my thoughts on the matter and I got an A so I guess I won. Something everyone missed back then- I see in my online search the suggestion that they whole poem is bullet shaped, too bad there was no internet in those days. Here's the poem as EE wrote it:
Some southern states and areas in spain still have live pigeon shoots. They are not advertised as the anti gun save the animals types show up. A few years ago one of their drones was shot down when they tried to interfer with an event.
Most dont know the ways of how live pigeon shooting shaped trap shooting. Reasons the clays are called blue rocks and clay pigeons. Even the term and style of monte carlo stocks came from pigeon guns and the big live pigeon shoots held in monte carlo
A drone would make a hell of a target on a gun range
Theres a sport where they tape small explosives to the underside of a drone. It tilts in flight to show a steel flat bottom and the pellets spark the explosive when hit. I cant recall the name right now
So i have this giuseppe gitti pictured between a baikal ij58 12ga and universal doublewing 10ga. Everyone knows that baikals are recycled lottas and tanks. Clunky heavy things and although the gitti is larger across the action and has 30" tubes it handles so much better. Its almost the same width as my 10ga double. It sports 30" barrels concave raised rib. Side clips. Bolsters dolls head lockup and greener cross bolt as well as a gold oval inlaid in the stock. Fixed chokes f/f as im told (ive never measured but it patterns tight) only 2.75" chambers. Stamps : kg 1340. 20,3 70. Both tubes marked 18,4. 17,6. 12.
This is as close to a pigeon gun as i got
