Milsurp price insanity

Light Infantry is spot on.

South American Mausers of all types languished for decades. Many folks curled up their lip, when they were even mentioned.

One of the usual "quotes" was "They weren't used in combat"

That type of mentality comes from people that haven't done their due diligence

South American Mausers were used extensively in military engagements and many still bear the scars.

Recently, over the last 3-4 years, the 98 based models have been drawing more attention.

The lovely NIW Brazilian M1908s and M1935s were always pricey and popular, right from the first days of their release from Brazilian service. Many were used as bases for custom builds. I still have one of the units that were cut down and offered by International in the mid seventies.

They took brand new, out of the crate M1935s, cut back the barrels to 24inches, removed the rear sights and bent down the bolt handles to clear a scope.

The receivers weren't profiled by removing the charger hump and they came with original triggers and trigger guards/floorplate/magwell and follower.

They weren't D&T because at that time hole spacing wasn't as standardized as it is today and the smiths doing the custom builds often had proprietary mounts of their own.

At that time, the M1935s were selling for $75 in the wrap, with all accessories, $90.

A cut back rifle sold for $120, no stock, all ready for the smith or bubba to finish it to their own personal or customer requests.

Now, those same rifles are far to valuable to modify into sporters.

One particular model of Mausers that really deserves a lot more attention than they get, almost in the Rodney Dangerfield category, are the M91 and its variants. IMHO, this is because they are mostly chambered for the 7.63x53, commonly known as the 7.65Argentine.

This cartridge was never released as surplus to the civilian market in significant quantities. Most of the nations used it all up, before releasing the rifles.

I had a chance to put in a bid on a Peruvian lot of surplus 7.65x53. I declined, after viewing it in 1976. IMHO, it was component quality only. Ye Olde Hunter, out of the US got it all, with some palm greasing and paying to have it packed up and removed from the site.

The Belgians issued the M91s and the cartridge right up to WWII. It will do anything the 7.62Nato round will do and has identical ballistics.

Then there are the often neglected M93/95/96 models. All of which have seen extensive combat use on almost every continent.

Let us not forget the fabulous Kropatschek 8mm rifles. Superbly built by Steyr in Switzerland for Portugal, with parts fitting so close it can be difficult to see the seam.

I could go on but the list is long. There are a lot of hidden gems out there. I notice that most Martini variants are still very affordable and many are chambered in the venerable 303 British.

Alas, much of it is based on "snob appeal" more than the historical role of the firearm.
 
Bear hunter

Please go on. You listed a few that you absolutely correct wrt to being hidden. I'd like to hear of a few more if you don't mind.

Ones that come to my mind are a number of pre and post war Belgian Mausers.

The m95 Mannlichers were always always scorned by many but seem to have caught on in the last 10 years or so.

Italian Carcanos as well.


"Snob appeal"; excellent description.
 
Bear hunter

Please go on. You listed a few that you absolutely correct wrt to being hidden. I'd like to hear of a few more if you don't mind.

Ones that come to my mind are a number of pre and post war Belgian Mausers.

The m95 Mannlichers were always always scorned by many but seem to have caught on in the last 10 years or so.

Italian Carcanos as well.


"Snob appeal"; excellent description.

Where do I start?

The predecessors to the M95 straight pulls, the 1886, 1888 and 1890 straight pulls are steeped in history as well. I saw many of them being used by tribesmen in Africa, in the late sixties.

Then, there are the French surplus variants. There was a time, before the eighties, that you couldn't give them away. Even now, most people just give you a blank stare when you talk about them. The 1886 is a great rifle, well made and the French issued them all the away into SE Asia, to local troops, before the Viet Minh threw them out. Most show the ravages of being ridden hard and put away wet.

Sniders and Springfield Trapdoors are the steal of the decade right now. Most people want to shoot their curios and ammo for them needs to be handloaded for the most part. They should be used with Black Powder only but that frightens off most shooters as well.

Same goes for the Krops and early Lee Enfields, the original loadings were compressed pellets of BP under 220grn bullets.

The only way I can get my early LEs to give the same velocities as those stated in the early BP specs is with a heavily compressed BP pistol powder load. Clean up is easier with BP than with Cordite IMHO.

A lot of shooters of these old rifles won't hand load for them. They don't know what they're missing.

Take the 8mm Krop for instance, or the 303 Brit or 8x50 (Lebel) with BP loads. The accuracy and velocities that can be had out of these rifles with BP is eye opening.

To my knowledge, the French never issued they 8x50 cartridges with BP.

Let us not forget the first cartridge rifles and conversions, like the 50-70 Springfields or Remington Rolling Block variations, chambered in everything from 7x57 to 8mm Krag, 43 Spanish, 12.7R and a host of other cartridges. They're still easily affordable for most people, but finding factory ammo is impossible to difficult at best.

Krags, either European or US have always been respected as well as popular and expensive, when compared to other milsurps.

The 6.5x55 Krags and the US Krags chambered for the 30-40 Krag were easily supplied with factory fodder, until recently. Prices rise or fall according to availability.

I bought a lovely little US 1898, martial carbine, that was armory modified to that configuration recently, for an amazing price, because the owner didn't hand load, left all of his brass in the buckets at the range and couldn't find anymore factory ammo, which used to be available at every gas station and hardware store, right beside the 303Brit and 30-06.

People want to shoot their historical firearms. When they can't, prices drop as a rule of thumb.

The Mauser 98 craze and now the Lee Enfield craze are definite exceptions to the rule, as are the M95 carbines.
 
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I have one with a 1917 Tula receiver and a 1942 stamped Tikka barrel. Shoots like a laser, with a trigger pull lighter than that of my hunting rifle.

UsbFAQP.jpg


1917 Tula as well :) barrel and receiver.
Triggers are indeed phenomenal on these.
 
some years back I purchased a rc k98 in excellent condition for 150$. most of the old military guns were cheap back then and I wished I could have bought some extras to sell later on in my older days.
 
Yup, Mosin variants, once, not very long ago, considered to be dogs and jack handles are also seeing their day in the limelight.

Most models, depending on where you live are still very affordable but starting to get out of reach of many, other than those serious about collecting or shooting milsurps.

Relatively cheap ammo is still available but prices are going up.

I know folks whose money is tight, selling off their M91/M91-30/M38 and M44 rifles because they just don't feel they can afford to pass up on the extra cash.

They may regret their decision in the future.

The thing is, many more Mosin variants survived, simply because they weren't easily converted to scoped sporting rifles. That's what happened with the Portuguese Vergueiro rifles and other split bridge receiver based rifles as well.

Back in the late sixties, there was an enterprising individual in the US that picked up a bunch of Finn capture Mosins cheap. He set back the barrels by cutting off the tenons and chambers enough so that they could be rechambered for the 30-06 Springfield, then replaced the extractor with one made to handle the smaller rim diameter.

The hue and cry that went up in all of the US pro firearms magazines and papers at the time, was all negative. Everything from, ''how could you blaspheme the US 30-06 cartridge in such a manner to they're all going to blow up in your faces"

I bought one of those for $10, in excellent condition from Ed Karrer's Gunatorium, just northeast on the outskirts of Spokane.

It was a great rifle.

The stock had been slightly shortened, so the profile was similar, just a bit shorter.

6 inch groups at 100yards were the norm with factory ammo or surplus ammo.

The lovely rifle had a .311 bore diameter.

When loaded with .312 diameter bullets, intended for the 303Brit, the rifle became a minute of angle shooter.

It's one of the rifles I wish I hadn't sold off, when the divorce bills and settlement from my first marriage brought down the financial hammer on such things for a few years.

I know they're still out there. I saw one at the last Kamloops show, but felt the price was outrageous at $250 for a bubba.

Coulda, shoulda, butttttttttt????????
 
What about all of the various Winchester level actions that Century got from South America in the 1960's

They also had a couple of thousand Mod95 Winchesters, chambered for the 7.62x54R, from Russia.

Winchester model 1907 semi auto carbines chambered for 351 were sold to France and the Germans captured them, along with a bunch of Thompsons at Normandy and a bunch of Mexican Model 92s that were rechamberd for the 45 acp.

The Cuban revolutionaries, under the tutelage of an American sympathizer, converted hundreds of Model 92s to full auto. The fabled "Cuban Winchester"

Teddy Rooseveldt's Rough Riders carried Model 1907 carbines in 351 chambering, with ten round magazines, up San Juan Hill.
A lot of lever action Winchesters saw action and were shipped all over the world, right from the beginning of production.

Companies didn't get that big selling firearms to ordinary citizens.
 
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Never know what’s tucked away at local gun shops! Luckily it went to someone who knows what it is and it’s historic value as opposed to being seen as “another garbage rod”.
 
What about all of the various Winchester level actions that Century got from South America in the 1960's

It may have been earlier, I remember reading that 4000 came in; 2000 in new condition and 2000 in used condition.
 
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