Poll: How long should you have to wait for match results?
- Thread starter ckc123
- Start date
stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
With all due respect CK......
You are complaining about how long it takes to post scores.
None of the examples you list (impressive as they are) help in this regard....
You are complaining about how long it takes to post scores.
None of the examples you list (impressive as they are) help in this regard....
And yours do? stating that since the person did not volenteer at the match that he's not entitled to have an opinion on it.. your the one that started down this path..
I was asking a simple question, and you stated that people are not allowed to have one..
Jeezus guys....
I don't expect these flame wars until mid Feb when we've been couped up too long
My .02...
The match is not over until the results are posted. What is the ideal time frame?...well ASAP of course When I work matches...I generally opt out of tear down...and head home to do the stats. I try to have them ready that nite for posting in the morning (L1 and L2 matches)
That being said...if I was also doing setup and tear down (the two most thankless jobs in IPSC) in addition to shooting and working... there'd be little chance of me getting the scores up the same nite.
In most cases...the scores are done within 2 days and that's reasonable to me. If life gets in the way and it takes a few days more on occasion...well you can't fire a volunteer...so a little understanding goes a long way.
I have never heard of results taking 3 weeks...so if this is the case (and it would be a very rare expection) then there is an obvious problem and we would be happy to look into it...
As CKC pointed put...he has developed an app for us that will allow the MD's to upload the results directly to the website. That means that the results that are done at midnite...won't have to wait until the next morning to be posted. We have to coordinate with the provider to get it up and running...and that will be an early 2008 project.
Regards
Craig Stoklosar
IPSC Ontario
I don't expect these flame wars until mid Feb when we've been couped up too long
My .02...
The match is not over until the results are posted. What is the ideal time frame?...well ASAP of course
When I work matches...I generally opt out of tear down...and head home to do the stats. I try to have them ready that nite for posting in the morning (L1 and L2 matches)That being said...if I was also doing setup and tear down (the two most thankless jobs in IPSC) in addition to shooting and working... there'd be little chance of me getting the scores up the same nite.
In most cases...the scores are done within 2 days and that's reasonable to me. If life gets in the way and it takes a few days more on occasion...well you can't fire a volunteer...so a little understanding goes a long way.
I have never heard of results taking 3 weeks...so if this is the case (and it would be a very rare expection) then there is an obvious problem and we would be happy to look into it...
As CKC pointed put...he has developed an app for us that will allow the MD's to upload the results directly to the website. That means that the results that are done at midnite...won't have to wait until the next morning to be posted. We have to coordinate with the provider to get it up and running...and that will be an early 2008 project.
Regards
Craig Stoklosar
IPSC Ontario
I didn't start this thread to point out certain clubs, or matches that this has happened to in the past, the reason I brought it up was to prevent it from happening again in the future, and looking at if there should be a "limit" or "expection" defined to sanctioned matches (and what that duration should be)
Storm: I've only shot one match at your club, and the results where posted in a reasonable time frame, so if you got your shorts in a knot thinking I was implying you, then that was not the case..
It's not defined for L1 & L2 matches...
I think we can use common sense....
If there's a valid reason for a delay (personal or family crises) I would encourage the MD/Stats person to put the score sheets in a courier envelope and send them to me...
That being said...I would only expect this in very rare occassions, when not having a fall back plan would result in results taking more then 5 days or so...
stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
And I stand by that statment...
Anyone not directly involved in helping run matches.....
Should just be happy that they have matches to go to at all.
And you are correct. EESA matches historically have had results posted withing HOURS of the match ending thanks to my daughter...
I just resent to the highest order anyone saying that they DESERVE anything other than an opportunity to PLAY THE GAME!
And god forbid anyone should expect any level of professionalism from your match right? I guess we don't need NROI, or IPSC ontario or canada, who's goal is to make it a more professional, and expanding sport. Heck we might as well throw out the rule book at your matches.. cause we can't expect someone there to follow a rule and want a proper sport right? I can't expect that cause I didn't volenteer at YOUR match.
stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
Games need rules.......
That much should be clear...
Rules need organization...
Again Simple.
What you are asking for is that people put out there VOLUNTEER TIME to abide YOUR ideas as to what is acceptatble.
Well to me that is patently unacceptable.
You get what you get when you get it.
Nobody is ATTEMPTING to artificially hold back results that much should be evident.
Also.....nowhere did I say you needed to volunteer at MY match. However if you think that a certain match, or certain club is floundering.. Then ask what you can do to HELP!
That much should be clear...
Rules need organization...
Again Simple.
What you are asking for is that people put out there VOLUNTEER TIME to abide YOUR ideas as to what is acceptatble.
Well to me that is patently unacceptable.
You get what you get when you get it.
Nobody is ATTEMPTING to artificially hold back results that much should be evident.
Also.....nowhere did I say you needed to volunteer at MY match. However if you think that a certain match, or certain club is floundering.. Then ask what you can do to HELP!
Why?
Well... That's how you west coasters do it. Imagine that!!! I know the east coasters do it too. Results are done by the time the match is done, or shortly thereafter. Even elsewhere in the world too. Isn't that just terrible? Don't they know that here in Ontario we do it our way? Everyone else is just plain wrong as usual. It's just plain wrong to expect anything from the matches we pay to shoot. See.. here we love to pay to paticipate but are never expected to ask for anything in return. Nothing. Don't you dare critisize any match around here. Don't you dare to ask for results in a timely manner. Nope, not here. Don't you dare point out stages that don't meet rulebook criteria. What a terrible insult to the volunteers who have worked so hard, and are paid nothing to build and run, well, of course what they consider a professional match. I suppose some people might never have attended a real professional match, so how could they know, I suppose.
What people need to accept is the following: This is a sport. It's driven by the desire for competition, and is EXTREMELY competitive by it's design.
The only way participants gauge their progress and their abilities and their desire to continue competing lies in the results. So yes, results are most important and deserve a high level of priority when organizing a match. This job should be given the appropriate amount of staffing to ensure results are completed along with the match. Quigley and Julie's job at most of the Level III's around here is thankless but nevertheless almost always professional and timely. Sanctioned matches at the I and II level should be no different. With the price of laptops these days and the amount of people around who know how to actually use them, there's just no excuse for results not to be done with the match. If Ontarians think it's aceptable to pay $25 or $30 for a "Level II" match with 50 or 60 rounds, it's also acceptable to DEMAND to use some of that money to do whatever it takes to get the results done ON TIME!!!!
The results are an integral part of the match we are PAYING to shoot. We pay to get the results along with the props, targets, patches, range time and RO's. There should be a mechanism in the rulebook that de-sanctions matches if the results are not available in the hours after the match has closed. One, two, maybe three hours, I don't know. But waiting for weeks and sometimes months as has been the case around here sometimes is not helping to advance this sport and therefore UNACCEPTABLE. A match is not over, finished or complete until the results are available to competitors.
Well... That's how you west coasters do it. Imagine that!!! I know the east coasters do it too. Results are done by the time the match is done, or shortly thereafter. Even elsewhere in the world too. Isn't that just terrible? Don't they know that here in Ontario we do it our way? Everyone else is just plain wrong as usual. It's just plain wrong to expect anything from the matches we pay to shoot. See.. here we love to pay to paticipate but are never expected to ask for anything in return. Nothing. Don't you dare critisize any match around here. Don't you dare to ask for results in a timely manner. Nope, not here. Don't you dare point out stages that don't meet rulebook criteria. What a terrible insult to the volunteers who have worked so hard, and are paid nothing to build and run, well, of course what they consider a professional match. I suppose some people might never have attended a real professional match, so how could they know, I suppose.
What people need to accept is the following: This is a sport. It's driven by the desire for competition, and is EXTREMELY competitive by it's design.
The only way participants gauge their progress and their abilities and their desire to continue competing lies in the results. So yes, results are most important and deserve a high level of priority when organizing a match. This job should be given the appropriate amount of staffing to ensure results are completed along with the match. Quigley and Julie's job at most of the Level III's around here is thankless but nevertheless almost always professional and timely. Sanctioned matches at the I and II level should be no different. With the price of laptops these days and the amount of people around who know how to actually use them, there's just no excuse for results not to be done with the match. If Ontarians think it's aceptable to pay $25 or $30 for a "Level II" match with 50 or 60 rounds, it's also acceptable to DEMAND to use some of that money to do whatever it takes to get the results done ON TIME!!!!
The results are an integral part of the match we are PAYING to shoot. We pay to get the results along with the props, targets, patches, range time and RO's. There should be a mechanism in the rulebook that de-sanctions matches if the results are not available in the hours after the match has closed. One, two, maybe three hours, I don't know. But waiting for weeks and sometimes months as has been the case around here sometimes is not helping to advance this sport and therefore UNACCEPTABLE. A match is not over, finished or complete until the results are available to competitors.
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stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
Yes indeed.........that sure inspires people to host matches.......
Yeee haaa
hip hip horray!!
pfffft.......
These matches that take weeks, or months to get results....did anyonw think to ASK as to what was wrong??
As I stated before, unless the MD is a masochist.........they would be oh to happy to have the results posted and be done with it......if only to bask in the glory of the multitude of thanks for the match.......errr scratch that.
BTW....it is my understanding that a match cannot be taken down until the results are posted. In fact not until an hour after that. (L3s at least).
Oh speaking to my wife (who along with my daughter run the stats for our matches). It might help if people filled out there entry forms in a legible fashion with all their data. Of course Omen's online system is helping in that regard (well as long as people do not change divisions)>
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I asked before and so did Hungry Beagle. are we talking about the posting of the match results at the end of the match or are we talking about getting the results up on the internet?
In Alberta are match results are done up by the end of the day. we do awards right after tear down. we generally have a 100 people for our qualifier matches . our Provincials had 140 and we still had results ready by the end of tear down.
The results get posted on our website with 72 hours or less (thanks Kevin) normally, however sometimes they do take longer because of life. while it is nice to have the results up on the net to review ones performance (or lack there of) it is not a necessity!
In Alberta are match results are done up by the end of the day. we do awards right after tear down. we generally have a 100 people for our qualifier matches . our Provincials had 140 and we still had results ready by the end of tear down.
The results get posted on our website with 72 hours or less (thanks Kevin) normally, however sometimes they do take longer because of life. while it is nice to have the results up on the net to review ones performance (or lack there of) it is not a necessity!
Wow, happy New Year everyone! Some real passion out there.
Listen, no one out there with half a brain would detract from the enormous volunteer effort that goes into running our matches. I know some people whine and carp about things unreasonably and that seriously sticks in the craw, but by and large the work is deeply appreciated by most of us who don't or can't help anywhere near as much as we should. That said, I think the results issue is an important one, but that we are barking up the wrong tree in this debate.
It's not about competency or the effort or the will to do it or the lack thereof. To my mind this issue simply derives from the system we use. For the information gathering, processing and dissemination portion of running a match we are still using basically the same approach that we used in the `80's, and technology has absolutely leaped forward in the mean time, just as it has with the competition guns we now use. Hell, they used to time stages (way back when) with stop watches, and then shot timers came on the scene and everything changed for the better. The sport suddenly had real credibility since a clear winner could now be assigned. It was no longer just a pick-up game.
With our modern technology (laptop, Palm Pilot, wireless connections) it is possible to have matches scored pretty much instantly with no extra effort on the part of the match staff; considerably less effort in fact. It is possible to upload interim results to a club web page on a squad by squad basis if you want (seen it done). The first time I saw this sort of thing done was at an Area 8 Championship shepherded by Rob Boudrie, who has always been something of a techno-nerd, so it would make sense that he would pioneer this sort of thing. I was quite simply awe-struck, and immediately saw this as the way of the future. And as an up-side it completely removed the possibility of key-stroke error, illegible score sheets, and an extra level of laborious data entry since it's all wireless...just point and click.
Yes, the technology would cost some money to purchase and set up, but if there's a will to do it and everyone can see the benefit, I think most of us would be willing to pitch in a couple of extra bucks over the course of a few matches for each club to upgrade their equipment. Steel, props, targets, timers, etc....all cost money, but we budget these costs and plan for them. We could do this here and the results problem just....goes away.
One issue I've had with our current system:
At a Provincial Championship one year (I won't say which Province) I shot on a Saturday and had to be home for Sunday to work. The interim results were delayed on Saturday evening to the point were I had no option but to leave if I wanted to get home that night at all, so I left. On the Monday the final results were posted and due to a simple key stroke error, someone else ended up taking the first place trophy. I couldn't blame anyone for it since I know how difficult it is to even READ some of those score sheets once they've been corrected, rained on, crumpled up, lost, found again, handled by six different people and then input by tired eyes and hands at the end of the day. But it was still a real kick in the nads all the same, and there was nothing that could be done about it under our rule set...which also sucks by the way.
With technology where it is now, this is now a completely avoidable occurrence, and I do think we should collectively start pursuing a more up to date system. It would make it easier on everyone, especially those who repeatedly sacrifice their time, effort and holidays (and in many cases probably their sanity)to put matches on.
Just my thoughts......
R
Listen, no one out there with half a brain would detract from the enormous volunteer effort that goes into running our matches. I know some people whine and carp about things unreasonably and that seriously sticks in the craw, but by and large the work is deeply appreciated by most of us who don't or can't help anywhere near as much as we should. That said, I think the results issue is an important one, but that we are barking up the wrong tree in this debate.
It's not about competency or the effort or the will to do it or the lack thereof. To my mind this issue simply derives from the system we use. For the information gathering, processing and dissemination portion of running a match we are still using basically the same approach that we used in the `80's, and technology has absolutely leaped forward in the mean time, just as it has with the competition guns we now use. Hell, they used to time stages (way back when) with stop watches, and then shot timers came on the scene and everything changed for the better. The sport suddenly had real credibility since a clear winner could now be assigned. It was no longer just a pick-up game.
With our modern technology (laptop, Palm Pilot, wireless connections) it is possible to have matches scored pretty much instantly with no extra effort on the part of the match staff; considerably less effort in fact. It is possible to upload interim results to a club web page on a squad by squad basis if you want (seen it done). The first time I saw this sort of thing done was at an Area 8 Championship shepherded by Rob Boudrie, who has always been something of a techno-nerd, so it would make sense that he would pioneer this sort of thing. I was quite simply awe-struck, and immediately saw this as the way of the future. And as an up-side it completely removed the possibility of key-stroke error, illegible score sheets, and an extra level of laborious data entry since it's all wireless...just point and click.
Yes, the technology would cost some money to purchase and set up, but if there's a will to do it and everyone can see the benefit, I think most of us would be willing to pitch in a couple of extra bucks over the course of a few matches for each club to upgrade their equipment. Steel, props, targets, timers, etc....all cost money, but we budget these costs and plan for them. We could do this here and the results problem just....goes away.
One issue I've had with our current system:
At a Provincial Championship one year (I won't say which Province) I shot on a Saturday and had to be home for Sunday to work. The interim results were delayed on Saturday evening to the point were I had no option but to leave if I wanted to get home that night at all, so I left. On the Monday the final results were posted and due to a simple key stroke error, someone else ended up taking the first place trophy. I couldn't blame anyone for it since I know how difficult it is to even READ some of those score sheets once they've been corrected, rained on, crumpled up, lost, found again, handled by six different people and then input by tired eyes and hands at the end of the day. But it was still a real kick in the nads all the same, and there was nothing that could be done about it under our rule set...which also sucks by the way.
With technology where it is now, this is now a completely avoidable occurrence, and I do think we should collectively start pursuing a more up to date system. It would make it easier on everyone, especially those who repeatedly sacrifice their time, effort and holidays (and in many cases probably their sanity)to put matches on.
Just my thoughts......
R
stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
Oh would you stop being reasonable!
I mean the temerity!!
There we are having a good old dust up and YOU HAVE TO RUIN IT!!!
ARGH!!
I recall that there was a PALM version of MSS but that it was also VERY expensive to buy....
Of course now Palms are old fashioned anyway...........
I would love to see an all electronic system........but in the mean time we need to use good old paper and pen.
I mean the temerity!!
There we are having a good old dust up and YOU HAVE TO RUIN IT!!!
ARGH!!
I recall that there was a PALM version of MSS but that it was also VERY expensive to buy....
Of course now Palms are old fashioned anyway...........
I would love to see an all electronic system........but in the mean time we need to use good old paper and pen.
Sorry Storm; I'll try to be more confrontational in the future. Just don't get me started on the so-called benefits of non-continuity film making!
Paper and pen/cil works for now, but what say we all give some thought to gradually ushering in a newer more technological age eh? Doesn't have to be tomorrow, but if we put our heads together I'm sure we can find a way to finance it.....
palm baesd scoring for level-2's is totaly viable these days.
D-S-C in Utica Michigan will be doing all there monthly matches on palms from now on. The beta test was back in Oct and it went off with out a hitch. You can get basic rebuilt palms off e-bay for under $20 a unit. The largest cost is the getting the program.
D-S-C in Utica Michigan will be doing all there monthly matches on palms from now on. The beta test was back in Oct and it went off with out a hitch. You can get basic rebuilt palms off e-bay for under $20 a unit. The largest cost is the getting the program.
maybe the funds saved by cutting back on sitrep could be diverted to a paperless scoring setup that gets sent to Level 3's in Ontario?
To answer your question.. yes they did.. they (not me) even volenteered to put all the scrores in and get the results.. He was told that his help was not wanted. Did it speed up the results getting out.. Nope..
