3K$-4K$ Precision Rifle?

frzburn said:
I'll allow myself to add a little comment: I've read a couple of time, when you were talking about custom rifles, that you simply didn't want to build a rifle from ground up. It's not necessarily THIS complicated... Just buy a nice rifle (say, Rem 700P or Savage 10FP), change the stock, square the action, cut the barrel, and you almost got a .25 MOA rifle... whit more gunsmithing and some cash, you can have a sub .25 MOA rifle. For example: http://www.snipercentral.com/tacops700p.htm


But hey, do want you want, don't get a custom, buy a 4000$ rifle that's not even .5 MOA ;)
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I think we are all trying to guess what he is really looking for... but my read on the "didn't want to build a rifle" point and aversion to customs was that perhaps he just didn't have the room/resources/facilities to do the build himself... didn't want to get into having a whole bunch of parts left over, etc, etc

But look at it this way... custom does not imply that you have to do the work yourself, or even get into the nitty gritty specs... a good smith should be like a good tailor... you go in, tell him what you want, what uses you are looking for, he measures you up, and a few weeks later you get the perfect suit. Perfect fit and something uniquely yours... how could that be bad?
 
Like most, reading between the lines, all that is desired is a uber-cool range rocket. Thus the Blaser, looks very futuristic with lots of moving parts.

Go for it. It is a well made rifle and you will enjoy spending the mega bucks.

However, to be really on the cutting edge Uber-Cool tacky toy (CEUCTT), you should look at the semi auto sniper/tactical/blinged out rigs.

An AR10/SR25 or AR15 variants, lots of rails, magpul/Voltok/moving,folding buttstock. The barrel will need the newest flash hider for those night ops. Of course, threaded for the lastest "cans" - think hollow pipe with small hole in one end. Gisselle trigger groups, oversized controls, pins with locks. Harris bipod with a Pod lock of course.

All dressed in the right colours for your theatre of operation. The Leupold Mk4 will fit right in. Best part is there is an entire language of words to learn like SCAR, ACOG, see black rifle forum- really hard to keep track of what it all stands for.

Voila. Tacky cool.... Stuff this all in a Pelican with the right cutouts for support gear and you have the perfect rig for the show and tell at the range.

Best part, these rifles shoot very very well now. There is no issue getting sub MOA with many designs. Some even approach 1/2 MOA on AVERAGE.

If really set on the Euro scene, the HK, and Sig platforms are superb. Come in either 308 or 223 too. However, for these a S&B scope is more inline with the rifle.

Forget about reloading cause operators don't do that. Tear into a few boxes of Fed GM or RUAG (to really impress) and have at it. These rifles are set up to do well with factory ammo and these two are some of the best.

All will shoot and give maximum bling factor too.

Jerry
 
For 4000$s I would give serious consideration to the Steyr Elite
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They are a nice rifle, though the full length rail gave me some problems mounting really big (56mm) glass.

Also you could look around for a Sig Sauer SSG 3000
SSG3000-Detail3.jpg


or even a Sauer 202 Match
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You would likely be pushing that 4K figure on the Sauers, the Steyr can be had for 3K-ish, if you shop around.

You should contact FN Nicholls in Montreal, they are the primary importer for all of the above.

Personally I was interested in the Blaser, and still am. It may not be what alot of people think of as a perfect rifle, but it is different, and lots of folks seem to like the 93.

The Sako would always be a good choice as well.









mysticplayer said:
Like most, reading between the lines, all that is desired is a uber-cool range rocket. Thus the Blaser, looks very futuristic with lots of moving parts.

Go for it. It is a well made rifle and you will enjoy spending the mega bucks.

However, to be really on the cutting edge Uber-Cool tacky toy (CEUCTT), you should look at the semi auto sniper/tactical/blinged out rigs.

An AR10/SR25 or AR15 variants, lots of rails, magpul/Voltok/moving,folding buttstock. The barrel will need the newest flash hider for those night ops. Of course, threaded for the lastest "cans" - think hollow pipe with small hole in one end. Gisselle trigger groups, oversized controls, pins with locks. Harris bipod with a Pod lock of course.

All dressed in the right colours for your theatre of operation. The Leupold Mk4 will fit right in. Best part is there is an entire language of words to learn like SCAR, ACOG, see black rifle forum- really hard to keep track of what it all stands for.

Voila. Tacky cool.... Stuff this all in a Pelican with the right cutouts for support gear and you have the perfect rig for the show and tell at the range.

Best part, these rifles shoot very very well now. There is no issue getting sub MOA with many designs. Some even approach 1/2 MOA on AVERAGE.

If really set on the Euro scene, the HK, and Sig platforms are superb. Come in either 308 or 223 too. However, for these a S&B scope is more inline with the rifle.

Forget about reloading cause operators don't do that. Tear into a few boxes of Fed GM or RUAG (to really impress) and have at it. These rifles are set up to do well with factory ammo and these two are some of the best.

All will shoot and give maximum bling factor too.

Jerry
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No personal offence intended, but that post is so full of BS attitude it seems to me out of place for CGN, and this thread and forum. The fact that not everyone feels a need for a Rem 700 based rebuild, or benchrest accuracy does not deminish thier personal choices, or justify that sort of rude, disrespectful post.
 
Well, i read the whole thread.

All the posts have been well informative. The boys have given their advise on wich rig they recommend for 3 to 4g. I think the best bang for your buck is the TRG-22. It seems to me that the thread creator Wants to spend more that 2600$ at TSE though. If you want to spend more then I think the consensus is that your money would be better spent if you went with a renown gunsmith and give him your $4000.
Even if you dint know specs, even if you dont compete.

I would suggest to you to give Robertson Composites a call in ottawa. It's just a phone call, your not commiting to anything. The fact is that what ever the rifle you want or the style or look. A good smith will give world class accuracy. Isn't that what its all about. Im shure he also has a thumbhole stock that would fit you. His stocks are world renown.

Dont get me wrong, there is a lot of cool looking euro stuff out there. It's just not a good value compared to custom.

Happy holidays
 
You could look at a Steyr Tactical Elite. I was hunting with one in 308 yesterday. It is a very accurate rifle and very comfortable to shoot, however it does not seem a whole lot better than the Remington 700P. If it was my money I'd get a 700P and customise the crap out of it.
 
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To answer your question about the action lenght on the TRG 22, I don't see why it would be a problem...

My choice would also be the Sako, very well made rifles.
 
Wow! Lotsa reponses, I'll address them one at a time...

Esquif:
Now we're getting somewhere; The Coyote is beyond my budget if it's 5K... 4K is my strict maximum (after taxes + any shipping). Does the Savage come with an adjustable cheek rest + spacers? I'm not exactly avg. height/build... Also, what accuracy would I be looking at?

As for the Mark 4, I got offered 1300$ (after taxes) for the 4.5-14x40mm model with a TMR reticle. That seems decent from other prices I've seen on the web - what do you think?

Shazam*:
You hit the nail right on the head like Bob Villa with:
Shazam* said:
he just didn't have the room/resources/facilities to do the build himself... didn't want to get into having a whole bunch of parts left over, etc, etc
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You really spelled out exactly how I feel about going custom (again, for now).

mysticplayer:
That post was hilarious, and I hope you're the only one upon whom I left that impression. Anyway, I'm not gonna dissect your post; it's appropriate to send to a poser, but kinda rude for someone who isn't. I definetely am not looking for a porcupine of a rifle with rails sticking out left and right and flash suppressor and night vision scope and God knows what else... What do you think I am? Some 14 year-old airsoft player? Hell, I'm not even in a hurry to get a muzzle brake. The only reason I liked the Blaser was for the out of box accuracy, plus I remember liking the option of switching calibers easily (> 2 mins).

Rudeness aside, why the emphasis on the semi-auto ar-15 variants?

Dosing:
$4000 is really up there for the Steyr, and I'm hoping it's 4000$ after shipping/taxes and everything else; how does it perform? I've looked into the SSG-3000 before and saw some good reviews, but it cost quite a bit the last time I checked, plus I don't know how available it is (discontinued, I beleive). Any idea how much? What do you know about the 202 match? Can the stock be modded? Also, you're not the only one here to have suggested the Sako - it's the one that's come up most often.

BTW, I felt the same way about mysticplayer's post, but maybe he was just trying to be funny cuz it was amuzing to say the least.

silverfox:
Yup, yet another TRG-22 suggestion, and I'm thinking it might be the way to go - Hell even if it's a bit below my price range, all the better, but I'm surprized how there seems to be somewhat of a gap right in the price range I'm looking at - all models seem to be cheaper that 3K$ or more expensive than 4...

Thanks for reading the whole thread, and Happy Holidays to you too.

HKFan:
Will consider the Elite along with the Sako mentioned before, thanks.

Pilot24:
Yet another Sako fan; thanks for the input
 
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Now I dont know much about the Kimbers but they are supposed to be pretty good rifles and they came out with a pretty sweet tactical rifle package I believe it comes with a Leupold scope and a Pelican Case of somesort for a little over 2000 I believe...Either that or the Sako would both be great choices:)
 
Sorry, I will be building my own rifles for a fraction of the cost, but lets face it, the cool factor of the Blaser R93 LRS2 cannot be matched. I'm most impressed by how it looks, but beauty and money are in the eye and hand of the beholder.

In all honesty, I've read the thread and this is where you need to be. Even if it costs more and I'm sure it's going for around $6000 US, I'd reconsider saving up a little longer and scout around for it. If you really want it, you'll eventually find it and I'm not making fun of you, I'm serious.

I remember seeing a guy buy an Accuracy International in .300WM with a Kahles scope and fitted case. Total price was around $7.500. The man couldn't be happier. He didn't buy it to compete, but really liked how it looked and felt. I believe that spoke more to me than anything and it didn't matter one bit to him that guys with their F-Class guns in .223 were beating him @ 1000yds.
 
hi all, i just wan't to ask if anybody know how to purchase a Cheytac M200 or EDM Windrunner M98, M96 or the XM04, or if there's a distributor in Canada? thank you very much and happy new year to you all be safe out there and have fun
 
redman said:
mysticplayer:
That post was hilarious, and I hope you're the only one upon whom I left that impression. Anyway, I'm not gonna dissect your post; it's appropriate to send to a poser, but kinda rude for someone who isn't. I definetely am not looking for a porcupine of a rifle with rails sticking out left and right and flash suppressor and night vision scope and God knows what else... What do you think I am? Some 14 year-old airsoft player? Hell, I'm not even in a hurry to get a muzzle brake. The only reason I liked the Blaser was for the out of box accuracy, plus I remember liking the option of switching calibers easily (> 2 mins).

Rudeness aside, why the emphasis on the semi-auto ar-15 variants?
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Glad you saw the info through the SARCASM. Glad you plan on shooting the rifle ie not a poser.

The emphasis on the semi is something that I have debated for almost 10yrs now.

I have never understood why a precision rifle given to some of the most talented soldiers has to weigh a ton and be built to sustain continuous use as a hammer.

You would think the best of the best would have some coordination and be able to find a rock??????

Over that decade I have seen the tactical rifle get heavier and heavier all in the name of strength. The present Army 308 weighs as much as a SAW. How does that make sense? I bet hoofing 17lbs of musket through crowded hallways and alleys is putting some big smiles on the working stiff.

From alloys and 'plastics' to the never ceasing need for steel. All this while maintaining a ballistically inferior but readily available rd.

I have also enjoyed the evolution and simplicity of the Russian small arms. The Dragunov caught my eye as a youth and the practicality and purpose has never left me. 9lbs with OPTICS. Det 10rd mags. MOA capable (yes, martha, they will shoot that well WITH the ammo designed for them which includes high BC heavy for cal bullets). Thumbhole stocked. Balanced for position as well as bipod use. Muzzle brake/flash hider. Robust and reliable in working conditions. All sounds pretty familiar today but the Russians put this together in the 1950's

Until recently, the bolt action has ruled supreme in Western sniper doctrine. Sure, one shot, one kill has a very ###y appeal.

However, as was very graphically shown in Afghanistan by some ultra talented Canadians. Those invisibles might very well be your best friend in SUPPRESSIVE FIRE from a long ways away.

Seems that these incidents have not gone unnoticed and the US forces are converting to semis for their snipers. Hell, some of them even accept having a detachable magasine on their bolt rifles now. Amazing. How anyone would make a soldier thumb 4 rds into their mag inorder to continue fighting is beyond me?

Even the Russians gave their soldiers ammo in stripper clips. NO rifles, but at least they didn't have to fumble the ammo.

Multiple targets that need to be removed at all engagment ranges and a big hurry is the scenerio our soldiers face/have faced/will face.

Over the last 5 yrs, the AR platform has really come into its own as an accuracy platform. The bugs seem to have been ironed out and the precision of these rifles equals a working bolt rifle.

Yep, they are still made of alloy and plastic but 1/2 MOA is 1/2 MOA made even more desireable when you can plink away as fast as the next M4 owner. They also can weigh a lot less.

I believe the present Knights Armament 308 platform is around 12lbs fully loaded with scope. Hey, an extra 5lbs for ammo, food and gear...coool Look ma, no steel (except the barrel and a few parts).

I feel that the future in a working rifle will be enhancements to the AR family or whatever this evolves into. The US 'Dragunov' will finally arrive albeit 50yrs behind the times.

Many Euro countries have seen the benefits of accurate high rates of fire and have been putting together some superb platforms for decades. From the HK to Sig, very nice working rifles.

The Isrealis, Finns, Chinese, Singaporeans, and just about anyone else who is allowed to make a small arm has been mucking about with accurate semi autos AND OPTICS.

We are definitely behind the curve but catching up fast.

SOoooooooo.... if you do want to have both a very functional/accurate factory rifle AND be on the next desired platform, the accurized semi platform might just do it for you. Plus two pins and you have a new cal from the 308 family to the RSAUM magnums.

As for barrel changes, the Savage will let you do the same thing albeit in 10mins. The new center feed det mag is superb and almost as good as the AI's. All for 1/4 the cost.

If they ever come, the HS or McM A5 stocked LE Savage HB will be a superb platform every bit as good as any of the rifles you are looking at. NO you can't convert a Stevens into this mag style (maybe the new center feed variants might?????).

Yep, pretty pedestrian and low brow but 1/2 MOA is 1/2MOA and the $3000 saved can buy you some superb optics, binos, rangefinders, kestrels, reloading gear/components, etc. The accutrigger at 1.5lbs is as good as any trigger on a rifle today.

Enjoy the journey. See you at the range.

Jerry
 
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canuckhunter:
What can I say - thanks for the unique insight. I'll try to get my hands on one to see if it's the real deal; until then, I'll keep it in mind.

mysticplayer (Jerry):
Wow, very informative post! Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, but one thing to note is that the long-range suppressive support + taking out multiple targets that you describe is what the designated marksman is for. Snipers are more for reconaissance/taking out a limited # of assets (person or equipment) and other very special purposes. The Dragunov was created to extend the range of the infrantry unit, which is basically the task of the designated marksman. The US outfits them with the (somewhat old) m14's, which is basically the Dragunov's western counterpart. Us Canucks have, unless I'm mistaken, the C7CT.

Anyway, we're getting way off topic. I know that a lot of these precision semi-auto rifles (especially the Euros) can cost an arm, a leg and a sister... So what do you recommend for my requirements? (out-of-box, .308, 3-4K$, pistol/thumbhole grip, adjustable stock, Euro would be nice)
 
To me, Designated marksmen is just the politically correct way of meaning 'Sniper'.

Yes, the Russians definitely had that system figured out way back when. Funny that this technique is being rediscovered in the same nasty dustbowls against the same 'enemy'.

There have been MANY options given to you from the mundane to the exotic. I have offered you a variety of options (see most recent posts) plus a website where you can review 90+ other choices.

If you have read some of my other posts, you will note that I build/own rifles based on performance NOT on price or options. Holes in paper impress me, not expensive brands.

I have owned accurate rifles that cost $100 and $1500. They all worked.

Ultimately, place your order, start making noise. There are never any wrong answers. If it doesn't truly fill your needs, there is an Exchange forum to resolve those issues.

Good luck with your choice and post your shooting results.

'Nuf said.
Jerry
 
The sniper program in Canada is a very, very difficult course with an attrition rate that is neary 90%. Some courses only pass 1 candidate. The Sniper is a Battalion level asset usualy with specific mission parameters as a member of Recce Platoon, in the support Company.

A designated marksman is a member of the Infantry Company or platoon who has shown shooting ability or may have been a member of the rifle team. They get a short 2 day course and may get their hands on an older C2 rifle as in the case of reserve units that normally don't have snipers unless they are ex regulars.

The great thing about "marksmen" is they are platoon and section level assets that can be used for overwatch, extending the "reach" of the platoon with accurate relatively "collateral safe" fire. They function at the discretion of the Company, platoon or section commander and perform tasks the battalion snipers normally would not.

They are great asset without the huge "cost" of the more highly skilled, equiped sniper. It's a relatively new thing that I can't believe was not adopted much earlier.

Sniping involves much more skill than just shooting. Shooting is the easy part.

Police "snipers" are more marksmen than snipers. However some are becoming more sniper-like of late.
 
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