Need help deciding on a new rifle

Maple57 said:
I must have misunderstood the part where he said...

I tend to introduce newbies & kids to shooting a fair bit, so lower recoil = better

So ya... Try letting kids shoot a 6.5... The black eyes will peak their interest. Great idea.

I let my daughter shoot a 6x47 once... Only once. Didn't go over well.

To a grown man sure, 6 and 6.5s are no big deal, but if the rifle is used to introduce youngsters, I would forget about rounds that are suitable for top ten percenters in match competition and focus on friendly cartridges.

Even in PRS circles a 6.5 is considered heavy these days.

70 percent of the shooters in a PRS match would not score a point worse if they shot a 223 with 77 grainers. I'll bet half would shoot better.

As for the 6.5 having better ballistics... Please by all means... Crunch the numbers out to 800 yards. The difference is almost meaningless. Sure the 6.5 Creed has better numbers, but you are calibrated to whatever you use. The only reason to shoot a 6.5 over a 6 is for terminal energy and the OP dont hunt.

That brings us down to a 6mm or 223...

Or do we want to scratch that low recoil thing off the requirement list?
Click to expand...

For a non-reloader, a 6mm Creedmoor or GT is going to make a lot more sense than .223.
 
Maple57 said:
I must have misunderstood the part where he said...

I tend to introduce newbies & kids to shooting a fair bit, so lower recoil = better

So ya... Try letting kids shoot a 6.5... The black eyes will peak their interest. Great idea.

I let my daughter shoot a 6x47 once... Only once. Didn't go over well.

To a grown man sure, 6 and 6.5s are no big deal, but if the rifle is used to introduce youngsters, I would forget about rounds that are suitable for top ten percenters in match competition and focus on friendly cartridges.

Even in PRS circles a 6.5 is considered heavy these days.

70 percent of the shooters in a PRS match would not score a point worse if they shot a 223 with 77 grainers. I'll bet half would shoot better.

As for the 6.5 having better ballistics... Please by all means... Crunch the numbers out to 800 yards. The difference is almost meaningless. Sure the 6.5 Creed has better numbers, but you are calibrated to whatever you use. The only reason to shoot a 6.5 over a 6 is for terminal energy and the OP dont hunt.

That brings us down to a 6mm or 223...

Or do we want to scratch that low recoil thing off the requirement list?
Click to expand...

The amount of felt recoil between a 17 lb braked 6.5 gun and a 17 lb 223 gun is pretty negligible. My wife loved my 6.5x47 Lapua, heavy, no recoil, accurate and ergonomic. I'd agree with you if we were talking 8 lb hunting rifles but these are already carry some significant mass to mitigate that. I would disagree with 223s being popular in PRS. On a calm day sure, but any inconsistency in the wind and the 223 will make you suffer which is exactly why its not used in PRS circles.
 
Maple57 said:
I must have misunderstood the part where he said...

I tend to introduce newbies & kids to shooting a fair bit, so lower recoil = better

So ya... Try letting kids shoot a 6.5... The black eyes will peak their interest. Great idea.

I let my daughter shoot a 6x47 once... Only once. Didn't go over well.

To a grown man sure, 6 and 6.5s are no big deal, but if the rifle is used to introduce youngsters, I would forget about rounds that are suitable for top ten percenters in match competition and focus on friendly cartridges.

Even in PRS circles a 6.5 is considered heavy these days.

…snip…

Or do we want to scratch that low recoil thing off the requirement list?
Click to expand...

I should clarify: when I say “kids”, I mean 12-17 year old friends of my kids, their cousins, etc. (they grow up so fast! ��). Anyone younger (or unsure) gets a shot at the .22. I believe the recoil from a Weighty 6.5CM PRS style rig will be no issue for. 12+ year old, using the tail end of this vid as a gauge: https://youtu.be/_oHQjkXkImg
 
Bubbafett33 said:
I should clarify: when I say “kids”, I mean 12-17 year old friends of my kids, their cousins, etc. (they grow up so fast! ��). Anyone younger (or unsure) gets a shot at the .22. I believe the recoil from a Weighty 6.5CM PRS style rig will be no issue for. 12+ year old, using the tail end of this vid as a gauge: https://youtu.be/_oHQjkXkImg
Click to expand...

A heavy 6.5 Creedmoor with an appropriate muzzle brake has very manageable recoil.
 
Although the PGW M15 is a nice action, I wouldn't exactly be rushing to buy an action that realistically won't have any support anymore (being that PGW has shut down).
 
Maple57 said:
I must have misunderstood the part where he said...

I tend to introduce newbies & kids to shooting a fair bit, so lower recoil = better

So ya... Try letting kids shoot a 6.5... The black eyes will peak their interest. Great idea.

I let my daughter shoot a 6x47 once... Only once. Didn't go over well.

To a grown man sure, 6 and 6.5s are no big deal, but if the rifle is used to introduce youngsters, I would forget about rounds that are suitable for top ten percenters in match competition and focus on friendly cartridges.

Even in PRS circles a 6.5 is considered heavy these days.

70 percent of the shooters in a PRS match would not score a point worse if they shot a 223 with 77 grainers. I'll bet half would shoot better.

As for the 6.5 having better ballistics... Please by all means... Crunch the numbers out to 800 yards. The difference is almost meaningless. Sure the 6.5 Creed has better numbers, but you are calibrated to whatever you use. The only reason to shoot a 6.5 over a 6 is for terminal energy and the OP dont hunt.

That brings us down to a 6mm or 223...

Or do we want to scratch that low recoil thing off the requirement list?
Click to expand...

dude.... like why are you this way?

Also, 6.5CM recoil in a 12+ pound gun with a brake is still negligible and isnt giving anyone a black eye.

Bubbafett, don't listen to Maple57 - check his post history if you want to know more. Ask Maple how he did in his last match and how many he has shot and then compare that to how many Rugbydave has shot and how he did.

KThomas & RugbyDave are good shooters and their advice is much more valuable.
 
Boys the ego thing gets real old.

The Op was looking for a low recoil option, so naturally I'm drawn to the 223 for that reason.

The Op is not even a reloader, so his accuracy expectations must certainly set the bar low. If not, it should be.

If he is purchasing his factory ammo, I assume cost per round is something that needs to be considered. He can buy premium Gold Medal Match 223 ammo for the cost of typical 6.5

As for ballistic advantages for the non reloader, I'm not sure it matters much because he will be dealing with box to box variability every day and regardless of what ballistic advantages on paper one cartridge might have over another, there will be no consistency over ### boxes of ammo.

He is only talking about a max distance of 800 yards and obviously in an informal setting. So why are you guys force feeding something with marginally better ballistics, much higher ammo cost and contrary to the above, significantly more recoil?

If he does decide to reload, and wants to compete, he will go a long way with his 223 before he acquires the skill needed to "require" (LOL) a 6 or 6.5.

With a 1:7 twist and a long throat he can run 88 EDLMs at 2800 FPS easy with a G1 BC of 0.545... That is on par with any of the small 6mms used by every day winners in PRS.

If the Op wants to go with something bigger for whatever reason, sure go ahead, but do it with consideration to the above.
 
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For a first prs gun why not look for a used tikka in the equipment exchange and drop it in the chassis of your choice. Learn what you like and works for you then move onto something nicer. Ctr is 6.5 is a great start.
 
Thanks for all the info and feedback thus far!! It's changed my direction from a Cadex to a really good conversation with the folks from Insite Arms. They're specc'ing me out a build.

To answer a few points raised so far in the thread:
  • On Recoil: A 6.5 CM in a well braked, weighted rifle is fine for the "newbie" introductions I do. I just didn't want someone recommending a 338 Lapua, 300PRC, 7 SAUM, etc ;-)
  • On Reloading: I don't have the time or interest to reload, so the best accuracy I can get with factory ammo is the goal. I know this limits accuracy--but a "3/8 MOA accuracy with factory ammo" guarantee from Insite means any accuracy problems are probably going to be the guy behind the rifle, and not the rifle itself!
  • On Distance: Obviously I'll be learning at predominantly shorter distances at first. Then I want to sign up for some training. Then I want to do some PRS and eventually (ie bucket list aspiration) I would like to stretch it out and see if I can hit anything at a mile.
  • On buying a lower cost "first" PRS-style rifle: I have lots of shooting experience with pistols, shotguns and rifles (including 22 prs competitions)--just none in the centerfire PRS space. Mediocre firearms take a lot of the fun out of it for me (in my experience they either feel cheap, don't operate reliably, skip features, sacrifice accuracy, or all four). I subscribe to a "buy once, cry once" philosophy, but being careful not to splurge on an expensive component that doesn't add value.

Thanks again for the input so far - it's drastically changed (improved) my purchasing plans!
 
Here's what the Insite folks came back with after our discussion. Well over budget...may be a "buy once, cry a few times" deal.. ;-)... Any feedback appreciated!

  • Impact 737 RH Std. BF
  • MPA Matrix Chassis
  • Gray Ops M-Lok Weight Kit Full Set
  • Hawk Hill 1.250 straight 6.5cal, 1/7.5 Finish @26
  • Chambering
  • CERAKOTE BARREL
  • Heathen 5 Port
  • Bix'n Andy Tac Sport Pro 2 stage
  • 10 rnd AICS 10/12rnd

Edit - I never gave Insite a specific budget - I'm referring to the $4K in my OP.
Edit 2 - Discussion between 6 Creed and 6.5 Creed came up...was leaning 6.5 but now not sure...
 
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A matrix would definitely be top notch, but if the overall sticker price is too high for one transaction you could save a good amount of money there and go with a cheaper option for now and upgrade later when you see other needs/wants you want in the chassis. Without the weight kit that rifle would be pretty heavy so you could also always wait on the weight kit and see if you actually feel like you need it.
 
Bubbafett33 said:
Edit - I never gave Insite a specific budget - I'm referring to the $4K in my OP.
Edit 2 - Discussion between 6 Creed and 6.5 Creed came up...was leaning 6.5 but now not sure...
Click to expand...

I would go with 6.5 Creed before 6 Creed. The 6.5 has an ideal powder weight to bullet weight ratio... the 6 Creed is too hot.

If you want a 6mm its best to go with something with less powder. 6XC would be more appropriate, but I like 6x47L better with large primer brass but that's a handloading deal. Although I dont care for it the 6 Creed is likely easy to find over the counter somewhere. Not sure what small 6mms you'd find over the counter as most below 38 grains or powder are hand loaded.
 
Bubbafett33 said:
Here's what the Insite folks came back with after our discussion. Well over budget...may be a "buy once, cry a few times" deal.. ;-)... Any feedback appreciated!

  • Impact 737 RH Std. BF
  • MPA Matrix Chassis
  • Gray Ops M-Lok Weight Kit Full Set
  • Hawk Hill 1.250 straight 6.5cal, 1/7.5 Finish @26
  • Chambering
  • CERAKOTE BARREL
  • Heathen 5 Port
  • Bix'n Andy Tac Sport Pro 2 stage
  • 10 rnd AICS 10/12rnd

Edit - I never gave Insite a specific budget - I'm referring to the $4K in my OP.
Edit 2 - Discussion between 6 Creed and 6.5 Creed came up...was leaning 6.5 but now not sure...
Click to expand...

You can build a rig yourself for less. Rugby Dave and myself had valid options for you to consider that would get you an extremely accurate setup with parts of your choosing. Contact Tom at Gobig tactical and tell him what you are looking for. He can supply all the parts and probably assemble it for you.
 
Maple57 said:
I must have misunderstood the part where he said...

I tend to introduce newbies & kids to shooting a fair bit, so lower recoil = better

So ya... Try letting kids shoot a 6.5... The black eyes will peak their interest. Great idea.

I let my daughter shoot a 6x47 once... Only once. Didn't go over well.

To a grown man sure, 6 and 6.5s are no big deal, but if the rifle is used to introduce youngsters, I would forget about rounds that are suitable for top ten percenters in match competition and focus on friendly cartridges.

Even in PRS circles a 6.5 is considered heavy these days.

70 percent of the shooters in a PRS match would not score a point worse if they shot a 223 with 77 grainers. I'll bet half would shoot better.

As for the 6.5 having better ballistics... Please by all means... Crunch the numbers out to 800 yards. The difference is almost meaningless. Sure the 6.5 Creed has better numbers, but you are calibrated to whatever you use. The only reason to shoot a 6.5 over a 6 is for terminal energy and the OP dont hunt.

That brings us down to a 6mm or 223...

Or do we want to scratch that low recoil thing off the requirement list?
Click to expand...

Bull####. My 7 year old son sent his first 2 rounds downrange out of my 30-06, 150 gr around 3000fps. After the first one I asked if he was done. He said no, wanted another one. 6.5CM is a pussycat, not much more than a 30-30. Add a brake and a heavy rifle and it’s pretty gentle.
 
Just for fun I filled a cart on gobig. Bighorn origin barreled action in 6.5 creedmoor, area 419 muzzle brake, triggertech special, and a krg x ray. $3500. Swap parts to your liking. Just an example of what can be had with your budget.
 
Bubbafett33 said:
Here's what the Insite folks came back with after our discussion. Well over budget...may be a "buy once, cry a few times" deal.. ;-)... Any feedback appreciated!

  • Impact 737 RH Std. BF
  • MPA Matrix Chassis
  • Gray Ops M-Lok Weight Kit Full Set
  • Hawk Hill 1.250 straight 6.5cal, 1/7.5 Finish @26
  • Chambering
  • CERAKOTE BARREL
  • Heathen 5 Port
  • Bix'n Andy Tac Sport Pro 2 stage
  • 10 rnd AICS 10/12rnd

Edit - I never gave Insite a specific budget - I'm referring to the $4K in my OP.
Edit 2 - Discussion between 6 Creed and 6.5 Creed came up...was leaning 6.5 but now not sure...
Click to expand...

That will be one nice rifle that will serve you well! I'm biased towards MDT chassis but MPA certainly makes a nice chassis as well.

As to 6 Creed vs 6.5 Creed, for a comp setup I'd err towards a 6 Creed (what I run) but since you're more gonna be working up towards competing with it, I'd go with the 6.5 Creed for the increased barrel life. It's easy to have Insite spin you up a 6 Creed barrel once you've hammered out everything else on your list and have got the bug to compete a bunch.
 
There are new and lightly used MDT ACC chassis on the CGN EE in the $1000-1200 range. That would be a big cost savings I imagine vs the MPA + weights they quoted you.
 
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