Short barrel lever actions and the 4570

Frozen Snake

Frozen Snake

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I've seen that chiappa makes a 12 inch 4570 rifle . I don't know much about the 4570 and barrel lengths but would the 12 inch be too short for propper powder burn or would it be more economical to have a 44 magnum in such a short rifle with almost the same performance? I know the 4570 with longer barrels would be no comparison but we are talking 12 inches here ?
 
Frozen Snake said:
I've seen that chiappa makes a 12 inch 4570 rifle . I don't know much about the 4570 and barrel lengths but would the 12 inch be too short for propper powder burn or would it be more economical to have a 44 magnum in such a short rifle with almost the same performance? I know the 4570 with longer barrels would be no comparison but we are talking 12 inches here ?
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I've thought about this when those Ridge runner rifles came out, and you got me wondering again so I put some numbers into Quick load. I'd be very curious to see what the velocities in an actual 12" rifle would be. The velocities the program spits out for 18.5" barrels are close to what I get with my guide gun so I would tend to believe the short barrel numbers as well.

The following are theoretical maximum loads using IMR 4198 at 40,000 psi.

300 grain jacketed
18.5" barrel 2,185 fps - 3,181 fpe
12" barrel 1,966 fps - 2,575 fpe

350 grain jacketed
18.5" barrel 1,972 fps - 3,023 fpe
12" barrel 1,790 fps - 2,489 fpe

460 grain lead
18.5" barrel 1,681 fps - 2,891 fpe
12" barrel - 1,538 fps - 2,420 fpe

540 grain lead
18.5" barrel 1,492 fps - 2,675 fps
12" barrel 1,378 fps - 2,281 fps

There's definitely some velocity loss when going to the 12" barrel but the above numbers are significantly greater than what can be done with .44 magnum. I get a max of about 1,425 fps with Lee 310 grain cast in my Rossi ranch hand in .44. The 45-70 looks like it can do the same velocity with a 500 grain bullet.
 
Economic the .44 dollar wise, I’m getting 1600 FPS with 240gr in my ranch hand.

Gyppos in fo above shows energy wise 45-70 is the way I’d go if I thought I needed it.
I don’t have th bc’s on these bullets but I’m sure the 300gr is flatter shooting and more energy down range, not that you are looking for that with a 12” rifle.
 
gyppo said:
I've thought about this when those Ridge runner rifles came out, and you got me wondering again so I put some numbers into Quick load. I'd be very curious to see what the velocities in an actual 12" rifle would be. The velocities the program spits out for 18.5" barrels are close to what I get with my guide gun so I would tend to believe the short barrel numbers as well.

The following are theoretical maximum loads using IMR 4198 at 40,000 psi.

300 grain jacketed
18.5" barrel 2,185 fps - 3,181 fpe
12" barrel 1,966 fps - 2,575 fpe

350 grain jacketed
18.5" barrel 1,972 fps - 3,023 fpe
12" barrel 1,790 fps - 2,489 fpe

460 grain lead
18.5" barrel 1,681 fps - 2,891 fpe
12" barrel - 1,538 fps - 2,420 fpe

540 grain lead
18.5" barrel 1,492 fps - 2,675 fps
12" barrel 1,378 fps - 2,281 fps

There's definitely some velocity loss when going to the 12" barrel but the above numbers are significantly greater than what can be done with .44 magnum. I get a max of about 1,425 fps with Lee 310 grain cast in my Rossi ranch hand in .44. The 45-70 looks like it can do the same velocity with a 500 grain bullet.
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i ws getting 1750 to 1800fps with 325 ftx 46g imr4198 ... 1890fps from 47.9g... out of my 12" chiappa RR.
 
I had looked at the 12” 45-70’s as well when Chiappa came out with them. There’s definitely something comforting about that much lead travelling at that speed when it comes to protection in a dangerous game situation. The reason that I didn’t get one had more to do with how much punishment I was willing to take. At that barrel length I would expect muzzle blast to be spectacular. But with that much shorter barrel making the rifle that much lighter, I would imagine recoil would be magnificent. I really think holding on to the damn thing could be interesting.
 
KePet said:
...At that barrel length I would expect muzzle blast to be spectacular. But with that much shorter barrel making the rifle that much lighter, I would imagine recoil would be magnificent....
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Agreed, and various loads can be dramatically better or worse for blast depending on powder burn rate, etc.. Usability, handling, and carryability are too easily overlooked for this type of rifle. Maybe it's subjective, but try before you buy...

Unless it's also used as a range toy, it will get carried a whole lot more than it will get shot. Personally, I find the 12" barrel levers don't carry as nicely as the 16" or 18", the balance is off. But they do stow much more easily in boats and SXS, when you're not carrying them.

I also find the 12" barrel levers to be "odd" in terms of handling. I've got a 12" barrel pump shotgun that handles and carries quite nicely by comparison. Maybe you can get used to it, maybe not... Relatively speaking, you also give up A LOT of sight radius with the 12" barrel.

As for actually shooting them, the muzzle blast can be downright disorienting for the operator. I made some max pressure hunting loads for a 12" lever in "merely" the 45LC and the blast was extraordinarily unpleasant. When you imagine how one of these short 45-70 might be used, that would be a deal breaker for many people. Apparently I'm not particularly recoil sensitive, but that can be an issue for many as well.
 
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MRP said:
...Gyppos in fo above shows energy wise 45-70 is the way I’d go if I thought I needed it. ...
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Sure, every firearm is a compromise and serves a purpose somewhere. I don't personally have a use for a 12" barrel 45-70. If I am somewhere that I honestly think I need a 45-70, I want it to have an 18" barrel. If I don't need a 45-70, then a properly loaded 44 Mag or 45 LC with a 16" barrel will be the right tool for the job.

You can "make it work" with shorter barrels for both options, but the cost/benefit may not be worth it depending on the individual.
 
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