What accuracy from open sight rifles?

Ike

Ike

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Hi all,

I am wondering what level of accuracy one can expect to get out of a standard open sight Battle Rifle (M1A, M14, M305 etc).

Criteria are:
-GROUPS YOU HAVE ACTUALLY ACHIEVED ;)
- Open factory sights
- Benched but not using a lead sled or return to zero rest
-100m distance

I know some of these guns are deadly accurate when tricked out and scoped but what do they do with open sights? What group size do you get?

You may see I have also posted similar questions in Hunting and Black Rifle forums, I am trying to get an idea of what the benchmark is for open sight guns. Most everyone uses scopes these days but I am curious about how the different types of firearms do with open sights.

Thanks and Cheers
 
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Strictly speaking, these rifles have a rear aperture sight, not an open sight (like a SMLE, K98k, etc.) If the shooter has good vision, and knows how to use the sights, group size will probably not be much less than if a scope were used.
 
At 100m a good shooter with good ammo etc could likely get around 1 1/2" with aperture sights. As tiriaq noted, this is about the same as most guys would get at that range with a scope. The only benefit of scoping these rifles is for 200 yard plus accuracy, where the front sight post starts covering too muich of the target to be very precise, in my opinion. Significant practice at longer ranges can minimize this if you have the time and ammo however, but will not get the recision of a good scope at longer ranges. I hunt with my Garand, and would take any reasonable shot on moose or bear out to 200 yards with confidence, but if I want to reliably and humanely put game down farther than that, I'd have to invest in a good scout mount and scope for my rifle.
 
theres just a really nice 'feel' of shooting iron sights. i find it more satisfying than using a scope.

personally im not very accurate with v-notch or patridge style sights at anything longer-distance - i really like ghost-rings though. the types of guns i have them on are not sub-MOA guns to begin with but i find no loss in accuracy in going from a scope to ghost rings at <100 yards, and they are more durable and sight more naturally and track targets faster.

the problem i find with fine aperture sights is that they are only accurate under ideal conditions. ie: shooting off a bench at a white target with a black bullseye in clear daylight. for real hunting conditions v-notch type sights are much better at hunting ranges... as for aperture sights, you need to open up the rear aperture for better visibility. tiny aperture sights are very accurate but require nearly ideal conditions... it would be very difficult to get those sights on an animal in front of a natural background.

so i usually still prefer the convenience of a scope on rifles which are designed for mounting one (ie: i dont have to deal with crazy/unstable mounting solutions, severe cheek weld issues, etc). strangely, shooting iron sights more has made my preference in scopes shift from the large objective high-power ones i used to buy to lower, fixed power ones like 2.5x.
 
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manbearpig said:
strangely, shooting iron sights more has made my preference in scopes shift from the large objective high-power ones i used to buy to lower, fixed power ones like 2.5x.
Click to expand...

I've just experience this same thing this year! I used to be a die-hard high magification guy myself, but after some positive experiences with my Garand and M14, I tried out a Leupold 2.8x scout scope (couldn't afford to buy one yet, though) and was very happy with it. In the past I never would even have looked at anything less than 3-9x varaible.
 
Effective use of iron sights depends to a large extent on the shooter's vision. I cannot use open sights - notch on the barrel - well at all. Both rear and front sights are blurred. I can use an aperture sight well, if the aperture is small enough that it helps my eye to focus so that the front sight is not blurred. In low light, the small aperture doesn't work. A ghost ring leaves the front sight badly blurred. On a target rifle, with an adjustable aperture, an aperture front, a long barrel and a round aiming mark, I can get good definition. The post front sight on a M305, No. 4, etc, does not contribute to a consistant precise elevation control.
A clear uniform sight picture contributes to accurate shooting. M-1/14 style sights are superior to those found on many other service rifles.
 
Hi

Ammo is a variable. Most mil surplus ammo is only good to about 2-3" at 100 yards. Some is a lot worse than that. There are exceptions of course, Swiss GP-11 ammo is quite good. With hand loads you can eliminate ammo as the issue.

Best with 55 year old eyes, good day, five shots, 1 1/2 to 1 3/4". That's true with a Swede Mauser, K31, or an AR-15. Iron sights on all of them. The AR-15 is good to under 1/2" with a scope on it. The K31 shoots about the same scope or no scope. I don't have a scope setup for any of the Swede's.

Somebody *good* can do 1" with any of those rifles, I just can't do it my self.

Bob
 
Well this past fall Fat Tony and I competed in a local match, and we had to use an M1 Garand and a Polytech M14S, this was for score at 500, 600 and two 800 meter shoots. An iron sight match, and as well for F-Class in thier own category, and Full Bore Target Rifle match. Fat Tony beat me overall score, but at the last 800 meter shoot I beat him in that round. I think my last score for that round,was 31 and one V out of possible 50 ponits.

The longest range shoots were very demanding, and everyone there outclassed us with RPAs, Angel 44s and Remington 700s....I shot my 30-06 Garand that day.
It was alot of fun though!
Sorry no time for groups at 100.....
 
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Brutus said:
Well this past fall Fat Tony and I competed in a local match, and we had to use an M1 Garand and a Polytech M14S, this was for score at 500, 600 and two 800 meter shoots. An iron sight match, and as well for F-Class in thier own category, and Full Bore Target Rifle match. Fat Tony beat me overall score, but at the last 800 meter shoot I beat him in that round. I think my last score for that round,was 31 and one V out of possible 50 ponits.

The longest range shoots were very demanding, and everyone there outclassed us with RPAs, Angel 44s and Remington 700s....I shot my 30-06 Garand that day.
It was alot of fun though!
Sorry no time for groups at 100.....
Click to expand...

At 600and 800m I bet 100m would just be too easy ;)
What is the size of target at 600m? That is all very interesting, but new and foreign to me

Cheers
 
I can regularly shoot sub 2" five shot groups with my un-modified M-14s, my best 5 shot group was .700". I'm using surplus DA 65 ammo which I was just recently told is very good ammo. I'm shooting from a bench with a garden variety rest and my old eyes sure aren't as sharp as my son's are.

My groups are good enough that I decided not to do any mods to my M-14s even tho the gas block is loose, the gas cylinder nut is loose and the barrel is over indexed a bit. Given the limitations of my vision I just don't see much to gain!

I shoot at a 6" orange target square that I cut from a sheet of poster board. I find this helps me shoot open sights well. I just bring the front sight up until it closes with the orange square and squeeze the trigger.
 
1" to 2" consistantly with my M1's & M1917's off the the bench. Larger groups with "open sights" (mauser, K31, etc) for similar reasons as Tiriaq.
 
Here Ike:

OFFICIAL TARGET DIMENSIONS
All International Fullbore Prone rifle targets have single bullseyes.
4.2 and 4.3 (Blank)
4.4 300 Yard Target
NRA No. MR-63 - Reduction of the MR-1 target for use at 300 yards.
Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)
X ring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2.85
10 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5.85
9 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8.85
8 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11.85
7 ring . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17.85

From the offical NRA site, Gosh I love copy/paste!
Cheers....
 
Strictly speaking, these rifles have a rear aperture sight, not an open sight (like a SMLE, K98k, etc.) If the shooter has good vision, and knows how to use the sights, group size will probably not be much less than if a scope were used.
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Bang On! I had a scope with ARMS rings. I shot some groups with the scope, took it off and did the same with irons. Essentially I shot almost just as well with the irons. Scopes give you the advantage of speed and target identification, plus if you have bad eyes they can help you out lots. Other than that a good pair of irons at reasonable ranges are just as good as a scope and even more fun to make hits with.
 
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