Problem with an old revolver. Black powder experts needed.

[skirsons]

I have been out to the range twice now to fire my antique .32rf "Union Jack" revolver.

I have been using the 32rf inserts offered by Dixie Gunworks.

The inserts have an offset hole to load in the casings of .22shorts. You pull out the bullet, dump the smokeless powder, and insert it into the casing. You then fill the casing with black powder and top it off with a .32 caliber ball.

The problem is that the first time I went to the range, only 2 out of 6 inserts fired correctly. On the rest of them, the primer seems to have gone off but has failed to ignite the black powder. The .32 caliber ball is pushed out of the casing by the primer.

The second time I went to the range, only 1 of 6 fired!

I asked the black powder guys at the range, and none of them knew why it wasn't working. I was hoping some of the experts here might be able to help.

 

[Turkeyslayer 1300]

I have a suggestion and maybe it's a bad one but try nail gun blanks as that would do away with the bullet pulling thin and if you used the right power level the black powder wouldn't be needed either. Just a thought.

 

[Win 38-55]

I am wondering if the black powder is adequately compressed, especially inside the empty 22 case. Do you fill and compress the 22 case, then insert it, then fill and compress the larger insert? Or are you just inserting the 22 case, then filling and compressing the powder in the larger insert?

 

[mooncoon]

I have made my own .32 shells and never had one fail to fire when the primer fired. I would suggest trying just the priming shells with no powder and no bullet to confirm that they are actually firing. I suspect they are denting but not firing. The problem with .22 shells is that they have to be mounted off center and that some guns will fire them, some not because of variation in the size of the firing blade on the hammer. Hilti shells can be centered because they are larger (.27 cal) but the rim of the .32 shell needs to be about .015" thin so that the Hilti shell sits proud and takes the full thump of the hammer. finally if the shells are firing every time and the powder not, try using .22 blanks in your shells. A final though; do not try cutting .22 shells off just below the bullet ---- the priming extends at least 1/2 way up the inside of the shell.

cheers mooncoon

 

[skirsons]

I am wondering if the black powder is adequately compressed, especially inside the empty 22 case. Do you fill and compress the 22 case, then insert it, then fill and compress the larger insert? Or are you just inserting the 22 case, then filling and compressing the powder in the larger insert?

Aha! I never thought of that. I should load more carefully and make sure I compress it. Does BP need to be compressed? I imagine that it is inside a muzzle loader, but I had no idea that it might need this.

I do believe that the .22 short primers are firing, because the bullet is being pushed out of the casing by the primer strike and the force of the hammer alone doesn't seem adequate to do this.

You can use .22 blanks apparently, but they are more expensive than .22 shorts and pulling the bullets.

 

[sportee]

Does BP need to be compressed? .

Definitely, BP must be slightly compressed.

Someone may correct me here but if I recall correctly the old bp load for the 32 RF was 9 grains of black...the 32 long rimfire was 12 grains of BP I believe...Just my recallection...

 

[Win 38-55]

Yes, BP definitely needs to be compressed for cartridge loads. That being said, Mooncoon's question about your primers is a definite possibility as well. I've had a lot of 22 cartridges fail to fire, more than I can shake a stick at.

 

[mooncoon]

Aha! I never thought of that. I should load more carefully and make sure I compress it. Does BP need to be compressed?

I do believe that the .22 short primers are firing, because the bullet is being pushed out of the casing by the primer strike and the force of the hammer alone doesn't seem adequate to do this.

BP needs to be compressed to burn uniformly but not to ignite. If the primers are firing, the powder should be firing and bullet coming out and considerably more than clearing the barrel.

Measure twice and cut once --- try firing 5 or 6 of the primers with no powder and be sure. You can do it in the basement unless you live in an apartment. Are you sure the powder is dry and will burn and is it black powder an not pyrodex or something synthetic. Fellow in our club was having a bugger of a time getting his flinter to fire; I would prime from my horn and the gun would fire. He would load and click click etc. I finally watched and it was quite amusing because the spark would fall from the flint then there would be a series of little flashes and if lucky the prime would go off.

To repeat an earlier statement; I have used long rifle shells in a Spencer and in a .32, as primers and never had a failure to fire as long as the shell itself fired. Dry black powder should fire when loaded as you appear to be doing.

cheers mooncoon

 

[skirsons]

I tried firing a couple of the primers with no powder and ball and they are definitely going off. There's a little bit of smoke coming out so I know the primers are working.

The powder is FFFg Goex. Is there a chance I could have gotten a bad batch of powder?

 

[vega]

rf

This may be right out of left field and of no interest, but I remember several years ago reading an article in Backwoodsman about reloading old rf cartridges by cutting off the tips of strike-anywhere matches, making a slurry of the stuff in water, using a toothpick to pack the rim, wait 'till dry, load, shoot.

I tried firing a couple of the primers with no powder and ball and they are definitely going off. There's a little bit of smoke coming out so I know the primers are working.

The powder is FFFg Goex. Is there a chance I could have gotten a bad batch of powder?

 

[Win 38-55]

Is the only way you can tell by seeing a little bit of smoke coming out? Doesn't it make any noise? I am wondering if you are getting incomplete ignition of your 22 primers.

 

[mooncoon]

I think that one is urban legend even if backwoods :>) the rim on a rimfire is rolled meaning that it is two layers thick with a very slight gap between. The heat generated by crushing the two layers sets off the priming compound and more importantly I doubt that the slurry would penetrate between the layers.

cheers mooncoon

 

[skirsons]

Is the only way you can tell by seeing a little bit of smoke coming out? Doesn't it make any noise? I am wondering if you are getting incomplete ignition of your 22 primers.

The sound of the .22 short primer is quiet. There's a bit of noise - louder than just the hammer striking the rim, but not so loud you'd need earplugs!

 

[DEZ]

When I used them I used a tin of small flobert cartridges pulled the bullet dumped the powder didn't have a problem still have them pm me if you want them try some CB or BB caps if you can get them don't use the nail gun cartridges they will work but will expand in the adapters and make it really hard to get them out. I also used 22lr cases pulled the bullet and cut them off short like BB caps time consuming but worked every time try cutting the 22 shorts shorter if you have something to do this with carefull if they get hot the primer may go off

 

[skirsons]

When I used them I used a tin of small flobert cartridges pulled the bullet dumped the powder didn't have a problem still have them pm me if you want them try some CB or BB caps if you can get them don't use the nail gun cartridges they will work but will expand in the adapters and make it really hard to get them out. I also used 22lr cases pulled the bullet and cut them off short like BB caps time consuming but worked every time try cutting the 22 shorts shorter if you have something to do this with carefull if they get hot the primer may go off

Perhaps that's it. Maybe even the .22 short cases are too long. I just bought .22 short because they were cheaper than blanks.

 

[mooncoon]

two observations; I think cutting the 22 shorts shorter is foolish and am surprised that the priming did not fire. The priming in a 22 shell goes about 1/2 way up the inside of a long rifle shell, occasionally higher.

Second thought is that it makes no sense to cut the shells shorter if the gun is not firing with the long ones. If a full shell (of priming) does not ignite the powder, why would only half that much priming work. Either go to blanks or try using long rifle shells.

The shell opening up after firing is not a problem; I use a punch and a base with a hole in the center to knock the old hilti shell out.

I continue to think there is something that we are missing here; the combination originally described should work and I don't understand why it is not.

cheers mooncoon

 

[skirsons]

Cutting the cases would be out of the question for me. I'm just too lazy to do that!

two observations; I think cutting the 22 shorts shorter is foolish and am surprised that the priming did not fire. The priming in a 22 shell goes about 1/2 way up the inside of a long rifle shell, occasionally higher.

Second thought is that it makes no sense to cut the shells shorter if the gun is not firing with the long ones. If a full shell (of priming) does not ignite the powder, why would only half that much priming work. Either go to blanks or try using long rifle shells.

The shell opening up after firing is not a problem; I use a punch and a base with a hole in the center to knock the old hilti shell out.

I continue to think there is something that we are missing here; the combination originally described should work and I don't understand why it is not.

cheers mooncoon

 

[DEZ]

I know 22lr cases are too long for those adapters thats why I cut them down I was thinking that perhaps the shorts were perhaps touching the ball and almost sealing the little powder in the shell off from the rest ?

 

[mooncoon]

I know 22lr cases are too long for those adapters thats why I cut them down I was thinking that perhaps the shorts were perhaps touching the ball and almost sealing the little powder in the shell off from the rest ?

That is the first suggestion that I have read that is starting to make sense. I made my own shells in several calibers and they are longer than the .22 long rifle shells I first used as primers. If the Dixie shells are short and the bullets are seated well down, that may be blocking ignition. Also if the slugs are lubed with a lot of grease or similar and seated close, it may be fouling the powder and/or blocking the flash.

Try loading a couple or three shells with powder only and just a thin card wad or similar on top of the shell so that you are sure that the powder is exposed to the primer.

cheers mooncoon

 

[skirsons]

Thanks for all the help. I think I might try something shorter... perhaps a tin of blanks will be purchased to test this theory. They might be more expensive - but hey if they work, it's worth it!