Restricted Antique Woes!

[LawrenceN]

I had to share my tale of woe with my fellow gunnutz. I've been in the market for high condition S&W First Mod.DA in .44 Russian. I've had several pass through my hands that I've let go for one reason or another, all the while refining my "want" list. Finally, I find a beautiful, high condition, S&W that filled my needs perfectly. I made the deal with the seller and eagerly awaited the arrival of my new acquisition. When it arrived I was gobsmacked!!! It was everything I wanted; perfect mechanically, lots of original blue and case colouring, long barrel (6-1/2") with the custom Paine bead foresight blade. The barrel is (I believe) a reblue, but so nicely done it's hard to be sure and there is a trace of old black powder corrosion in the nice shiny bore and very good rifling. TADA!!! I'm tickled pink, right? I start my usual cleaning and lubing routine and my heart sunk. There was a halo just ahead of case mouth stop in the cylinders, so I measure the cylinder length. Guess what; 1-9/16" long cylinder (.44 Russian is 1-7/16") So, I don't have my forever pistol, I have a pistol that's antique but not in an antique caliber! IT'S IN .44-40!!! I've started the process of registration with RCMP so we're all legal, but my wish to have a legal bush carry pistol is shot, for now. Bummer, eh? BTW, should anyone know of a high condition S&W First Mod. DA in .44 Russian with a long barrel (6"), give me a holler. For now, check out the pics of this beauty.

 

[Gary V]

I am glad you are happy enough with the purchase. You must have either got a great deal or trusted the seller didn't know themselves about the bad cylinder. In simpler times a 5 day inspection period would have been appropriate to verify the sellers claims.
I wonder if a replacement cylinder would ever be found to bring you back to antique status?
Thanks for sharing.

 

[tiriaq]

Once a piece is registered as restricted, the CFP will not reclassify it to antique if the caliber is changed.

If the OP has started the process of registration, it is too late to consider a caliber change.
I'm not sure how a 1 7/16" cylinder could be exchanged for a 1 9/16" cylinder anyway.

 

[Lee Enfield]

I take it that the OP is unaware that circa 1890 ALL of the guns were 1-9/16" length cylinders?

It's not the cylinder length that is important - it's the chambering.

 

[Js4fn]

You want one like this


whats my resolution

Not for sale

 

[bush1]

Mine is a first year of production, 3 digit s/n and chambered in 44 Russian. Red mottled grips only came on the first year of production according to the S&W historian.

A 44 Russian casing chambers nicely but a 44-40 is too large and will not chamber.



Not for sale either…

 

[Evanguy]

So is that a rare "frontier" model in 44-40, or was the cylinder switched at some point. Cant you just find another cylinder in 44 russian or somthing else and make a wildcat, Opposed to regestering it. Or maybe resell it without cylinder to keep it legal as an antique.

Did you chamber a 44-40 in it?

For less then the cost of a new antique centerfire handgun you could have had a 44 russian cylinder made for that out of 4140.

 

[tumbleweeds13]

Not all of the 1 9/16” cylinders were chambered in 44-40. Check before you over-react. My 2 cents

 

[LawrenceN]

Not all of the 1 9/16” cylinders were chambered in 44-40. Check before you over-react. My 2 cents

Thank you all for the input, but to answer the most asked question, yes I did chamber a .44-40 round and it's a perfect fit. Granted, the longer cylinder doesn't automatically make it .44-40 but the other hint was the "halo" just back of the case mouth stop ring. To js4fn and bush1, lovely pistols! I've seen a few long barrel 1st. models in varying degrees of condition for sale but most have pretty grotty bores.

 

[bush1]

I've started the process of registration with RCMP so we're all legal,

All legal ?

Gotta ask, why would you want to register it with the RCMP? I presume register it as an antique but still a registration is a registration and if it wasn’t registered before you’re only telling them you now have it in your possession.

 

[tiriaq]

All legal ?

Gotta ask, why would you want to register it with the RCMP? I presume register it as an antique but still a registration is a registration and if it wasn’t registered before you’re only telling them you now have it in your possession.

It is an unregistered restricted firearm.
If it were an antique, there would be no need to register it.
Seeing as it is in .44-40 it does not qualify as antique.
Perhaps the OP is choosing to register it because he does not wish to commit a criminal offense.

 

[bush1]

It is an unregistered restricted firearm.
If it were an antique, there would be no need to register it.
Seeing as it is in .44-40 it does not qualify as antique.
Perhaps the OP is choosing to register it because he does not wish to commit a criminal offense.

Woah there. Let’s hold off on the criminal offence allegations until the op gives us his take on the story. If he bought an antique in good faith and then finds out it has a cylinder in a caliber that makes it a restricted firearm, all he has to do is take the cylinder out until he sorts out what he is planning to do.

I took it that he was originally going at ask for an antique letter that some ask for. Don’t know why some do that as it’s a form of registration and that was the point on my post you jumped on…

When I said registration I really meant the letter…

 

[tiriaq]

In Post 1, the OP stated "I've started the process of registration with the RCMP". He knows that the law requires it to be registered.

Getting the antique letter is a form of registration. Basically, the CFP determines that the piece doesn't need to be registered. But the documentation is retained. Of course, subsequent transfers are not documented.

Let's hope that the price the OP paid reflects the value of a restricted S&W, and did not have the antique exempt bush shooting premium added.

 

[LawrenceN]

Fair enough. Let me clarify. I'm an old guy, an ex military cop, a life-long shooter, and still hunting at 72. It was my intent to have a legal bush carry pistol and I like, and reload for, the .44 Russian. Given the massively "anti-gun" government, press, and dumba%s urbanites, running afoul of the law was not an option. I could have explored other avenues for disposing of the pistol which was a significant investment for a retiree on Canada Pension, but was it worth potentially losing all my firearms and my license and the right to hunt? I chose to err on the side of caution. Trying to find the proper .44 Russian cylinder would have been a hassle and even removing the cylinder would still leave me in possession of restricted pistol, would it not? As I understand it, the frame is restricted. Now I can legally try to flog off the pistol to either a serious collector of Smith & Wesson revolvers, since this is a a custom piece and though maybe not "one-of-a-kind", it is certainly rare and especially in this condition. It's also of potential interest to a cowboy action shooter who has deep pockets and wants to be the top dog on the range with a rare antique pistol.

 

[Suther]

Fair enough. Let me clarify. I'm an old guy, an ex military cop, a life-long shooter, and still hunting at 72. It was my intent to have a legal bush carry pistol and I like, and reload for, the .44 Russian. Given the massively "anti-gun" government, press, and dumba%s urbanites, running afoul of the law was not an option. I could have explored other avenues for disposing of the pistol which was a significant investment for a retiree on Canada Pension, but was it worth potentially losing all my firearms and my license and the right to hunt? I chose to err on the side of caution. Trying to find the proper .44 Russian cylinder would have been a hassle and even removing the cylinder would still leave me in possession of restricted pistol, would it not? As I understand it, the frame is restricted. Now I can legally try to flog off the pistol to either a serious collector of Smith & Wesson revolvers, since this is a a custom piece and though maybe not "one-of-a-kind", it is certainly rare and especially in this condition. It's also of potential interest to a cowboy action shooter who has deep pockets and wants to be the top dog on the range with a rare antique pistol.

Its one of those funny situations. If you threw the 44-40 cylinder in the trash, how would anyone know what caliber it was in?... I can only assume the caliber is not indicated on the frame anywhere? Did these guns even come in 44-40, or is that an aftermarket cylinder or conversion?

If you bought it as an antique, and it meets all the qualifications of an antique with the exception of the caliber, how would anyone prove its not an antique if the cylinder was missing?


That said, given your situation it does not seem unreasonable to me that you did what you did.

 

[bush1]

Fair enough. Let me clarify. I'm an old guy, an ex military cop, a life-long shooter, and still hunting at 72. It was my intent to have a legal bush carry pistol and I like, and reload for, the .44 Russian. Given the massively "anti-gun" government, press, and dumba%s urbanites, running afoul of the law was not an option. I could have explored other avenues for disposing of the pistol which was a significant investment for a retiree on Canada Pension, but was it worth potentially losing all my firearms and my license and the right to hunt? I chose to err on the side of caution. Trying to find the proper .44 Russian cylinder would have been a hassle and even removing the cylinder would still leave me in possession of restricted pistol, would it not? As I understand it, the frame is restricted. Now I can legally try to flog off the pistol to either a serious collector of Smith & Wesson revolvers, since this is a a custom piece and though maybe not "one-of-a-kind", it is certainly rare and especially in this condition. It's also of potential interest to a cowboy action shooter who has deep pockets and wants to be the top dog on the range with a rare antique pistol.

Mine has no caliber markings on the frame so I would consider your frame to be antique status when you remove the cylinder.

Do you think someone modified the cylinder to take the 44-40 cartridge or do you think it was a 44-40 cylinder modified to fit that frame?

Did the seller pass it off as an antique not knowing about it? I know, lots of questions…

 

[LawrenceN]

Short course, the First Mod. DA (double action) were first produced in .44 S&W (BTW, .44 American is the same cartridge). The Russians considered adopting the .44 but wanted more "oomph" so S&W, in cooperation with the Russians, came out with the .44 Russian. They produced near to 60,000 of the first mod. in both calibers. Winchester developed the .44-40 round for their rifles and Colt and S&W both started producing pistols in the same caliber. The .44-40 S&W were called the Frontier model, and that is what I have. S&W produced around 15,500 of these. The one pictured came off the line in Aug. 1889. The seller is a great guy who made an honest error. He had the FRT letter with it. The confusion arose because when S&W started making the Frontier models, they started the serial from 0001 so you can have 2 nearly identical pistols with the same serial number but in different calibers. The seller honestly thought he sold me a .44 Russian.

 

[snurge]

I had a similar problem with a wg army that I bought at a gun show with antique papers.
I had it out shooting in the bush for a year before finding out it wasn’t antique
It was serial numbered 18k,16k is cut off no.
I traded to a guy in France instead of registering it.
How ever it was a nightmare of bureaucracy I can’t recommend

 

[Suther]

Short course, the First Mod. DA (double action) were first produced in .44 S&W (BTW, .44 American is the same cartridge). The Russians considered adopting the .44 but wanted more "oomph" so S&W, in cooperation with the Russians, came out with the .44 Russian. They produced near to 60,000 of the first mod. in both calibers. Winchester developed the .44-40 round for their rifles and Colt and S&W both started producing pistols in the same caliber. The .44-40 S&W were called the Frontier model, and that is what I have. S&W produced around 15,500 of these. The one pictured came off the line in Aug. 1889. The seller is a great guy who made an honest error. He had the FRT letter with it. The confusion arose because when S&W started making the Frontier models, they started the serial from 0001 so you can have 2 nearly identical pistols with the same serial number but in different calibers. The seller honestly thought he sold me a .44 Russian.

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. I'm guessing the frames are slightly different between the two calibers to accommodate the differences in cylinder then?

 

[LawrenceN]

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation. I'm guessing the frames are slightly different between the two calibers to accommodate the differences in cylinder then?

A picture paints a thousand words. I should have done this earlier but here's a pic of a .44 Russian and a .44-40 against each other. The difference in cylinder length is obvious. Also, here's a pic of the chambers. You'll note a sort of halo just behind the case mouth stop, but from what I've told that may not show up in badly worn chambers. This pistol is in high condition as you can see.