Does slamming slide on empty CZ damage it permanently?
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+1, sounds like the most logical reasoning on why it won't hurt it
people don't have any problem believing that dropping the bolt on a single round in an M14 chamber is bad, because "the M14 bolt is designed to overcome the resistance of stripping a round from the magazine" is it such a stretch to apply the same logic to the semi-automatic pistol.
With regard to military training, my experience is limited but I am under the understanding that in the military they may give a trainee a weapon with no ammunition (because it is safer and cheaper) and then spend weeks conditioning the trainee as if the weapon was loaded, prior to in troducing ammunition into the equation. Frequently the equipment given to trainees prior to them getting the ammunition is not "first line" I know the FN I was given had more than a dozen years on me.
I find it hard to believe John Browning made a second rate gun. Picking up a round doesn't slow down the slide that much on any gun. Not saying it is a good practice to let the slide shut empty but I doubt it is that big of deal.
I reckon you may be referring to two separate topics in your post.
Dropping a round into the chamber vs feeding from the mag for the M14 has nothing to do with the 'slowing of the bolt' as it get into battery. Rather, it has to do with the floating firing pin of the M14 and the possibility of a slam fire.
Furthermore, in the case of the M14, MANY people release the oprod and let it slam to battery ON PURPOSE and amuse themselves with the 'ping' test.
In the case of releasing the slide on semi-automatics, on the rare occasion, don't sweat it(even for a 1911). Ever have the slide fail to hold back(eg when your thumb accidently rubbed the slide lock)???....What happened? The slide closed on an empty chamber. Oops. No big deal, reload, rack and continuing squeezing the trigger.
The other thing that isn't preferable regarding release the slide is the use of the the slide lock on a new gun. On a new gun, it is more a courtesy issue to slow release the slide to save the finish and NOT WEAR DOWN THE SLIDE LOCK (due to friction).
Does it cause real ill harm? No. Would I purposely do it (1911 or otherwise)? No. If it did happen...no big deal, move on.
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Your point is well taken. An owner can do as he/she sees fit but it is bad manners to do it to another's firearm. I recall being taught this in a class a long time ago and it's more about respect for others than anything. If someone is going to handle your firearm I suppose you could lay down some ground rules or post them at a gun show but really this should be gun handling 101.
Mike
- Location
- Manitoulin Island
I agree that it is bad etiquette to do anything that could mar the finish on a new gun you are handling. I also agree that flipping open the cylinder on a revolver and letting the crane take the impact can be damaging. I think it less likely that flipping the crane shut will hurt anything as the back of the crane will take up against the frame. As far as dropping the slide on an empty chamer in a pistol goes, I can't see how this could hurt the trigger or hammer. All the impact would be on the slide and lock-up. If I see a slew of testimonials from U.S. army weapons techs about how they had to continually repair 1911's because of this, I will eat crow. Until then I call B.S.
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- Location
- Houston, TX
I had to search the internet to figure out what a halfcock notch is. Apparently it's part of the trigger mechanism to allow the firearm to sit at a half-cocked position. Can you point me to a schematic that shows where it is on a semi-auto? I still don't see the connection.
Thanks,
Eric
Thanks,
Eric
Seeing as the sear is holding back the hammer under both conditions, and there is no "Shock" against the hammer. There is no difference the hammer/sear at all.
When the notch where the sear engages the hammer gives out from slamming the slide shut on an empty chamber alot, hopefully the halfcock notch catches it when it slips off.
Not a problem if it is empty, but it should be used as a warning sign.
If the notch gives out when you are chambering a live round things will get noisy in a hurry.
Not a problem if it is empty, but it should be used as a warning sign.
If the notch gives out when you are chambering a live round things will get noisy in a hurry.
That makes no sence to me. AFAIK when a slide slams forward (with or without a round chambered), it has no effect on the hammer. The hammer is already fully cocked before the slide is released. If your sear is functional (and has not been tampered with), it will hold the hammer in place.
Are you saying that the "empty slide" slamming forward has a little bit of extra shock that will jostle the sear into letting go?
If anyone has a peice that they fear this could happen with (or it has), its obviously unsafe and should not be used.
Are you saying that the "empty slide" slamming forward has a little bit of extra shock that will jostle the sear into letting go?
If anyone has a peice that they fear this could happen with (or it has), its obviously unsafe and should not be used.
Non-existant on my Glock so your point is moot. I drop the slide on an empty chamber all the time. Glocks are so ugly they scream for that kind of treatment. If your firearm won't handle that minimal amount of abuse, I don't think it should be shot, hang it on the wall now.
As others have stated this is more of a bad etiquette thing, I sure wouldn't do it to anyone else's firearm without their permission, or on one for sale...
I used to do it all the time (except when handling someone else's pistol) - I then hung out for a bit at 1911forums and learned about "not letting the slide fall on an empty chamber".
I then came to the conclusion that it's neither here or there for all the reasons posted above... sometimes I ride the slide on an empty chamber, sometimes I don't
I then came to the conclusion that it's neither here or there for all the reasons posted above... sometimes I ride the slide on an empty chamber, sometimes I don't
The idea of not dropping the slide on an empty chamber comes from running 1911's with extremely light trigger pulls. The slide impact going into battery without a round in there to soften the blow and slow it down....just that tiny little bit.... can cause "sear bounce," and this can cause the sear to slip off the hammer notches and the hammer to fall to half-####. This batters the sear, as the half #### isn't designed to mate exactly with the sear, rather, only to catch it.
Now days, with better parts, tighter tolerances and more understanding of how to get a light pull without the risk of hammer follow, it is less likely that you will see sear bounce, but it does happen. Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is one test that is usually done in the process of doing a trigger job to make sure the hammer won't fall, but it is not something that should be done as a matter of habit. Springs wear, parts loosen, and I wouldn't want to see anyone dropping the slide on any of my competition guns on a regular basis.
Now days, with better parts, tighter tolerances and more understanding of how to get a light pull without the risk of hammer follow, it is less likely that you will see sear bounce, but it does happen. Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is one test that is usually done in the process of doing a trigger job to make sure the hammer won't fall, but it is not something that should be done as a matter of habit. Springs wear, parts loosen, and I wouldn't want to see anyone dropping the slide on any of my competition guns on a regular basis.
I once let this guy who was SUPPOSED to have had some firearms experience handle my guns - I was NOT impressed. His dad was some big shot in the Cdn Forces and his gun prowess was supposedly inherent.
Needless to say I handed him my pristine 35 year old S&W Model 29-2 .44 Magnum revolver (8 3/8 barrel) and he proceeded to swing out the cylinder, spin it, and, now picture this, while it was still spinning, forcefully slammed it shut by swinging the gun sharply to the side with the one and only hand he was holding the grip with.
Never have I witnessed such a display of (at best) ignorance or (at worst) arrogance. I didn't know whether to cry or knock his block off. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, and put my guns away, that revolver being the first and last he'd ever handle of my collection.
Now, my policy is that IF anyone is going to handle my guns, I tell them exactly what to do and not do BEFORE I let them do so, under close and constant supervision. I seldom let anyone mess with the equipment anymore, if you know what I mean.
As to the empty slide racking issue re 1911s: I have owned 1911s for over ten years now and have routinely taken them apart right down to the very last pin. From the way that they are made, I cannot see how racking the slide under ANY circumstances will have any effect on the hammer/sear mechanism EXCEPT perhaps in the manner described by "relliot" above.
Otherwise, the general issue solely becomes one of whether or not the slide is closing right on up to its final point of travel with significantly more force, if any, caused by the fact that there is no live round to strip off of the magazine and load into the chamber.
Now this raises two questions? One, does the slide close faster, and thus with more force and, if so, is the extra force significant enough to cause damage?
Two, if the force is significantly greater, what effects will it actually have on the specific parts whose job it is to stop the slide from going any further? Those parts would be the point of contact between the slide and the chamber area of the barrel (just oppsite the extractor), the two wide grooves in the slide itself and their mirror image on the top of the barrel, and finally the barrel connect. The slide pushes on the chamber area of the barrel which then causes it to move, via the barrel connect, up and forward, ultimately "locking" it with the slide and thus stopping the slide from moving any further forward (and ultimately getting launched right on off of the frame).
All of these parts function in exactly the same way whether or not a round is being chambered. The rim and shell casing absorb absolutely no impact or force since the slide does not contact it in any way but to push it forward, and this only up to a point. The ONLY difference in racking the slide empty or loaded is the very tiny amount of energy it takes to strip a round off of the mag and insert it into the chamber. Since this takes virtually no effort at all, the difference in force of an empty or loaded slide rack on the relevant parts is, for all practical purposes, NIL.
Therefore, my ultimate practical and experiential conclusion is that a 1911 can survive a fair amount of empty slide racking without ANY problem whatsoever. That being said, I would not endorse it as a regular practice per se. Once I became aware of even the slightest potential of some damage, I just stopped doing it (and I would CERTAINLY never do it to a gun that wasn't mine). Why do it? But if I were to foget and the slide got racked empty a few times, even quite a few times, I have no doubt that the gun would not be adversely affected in that it is made, quite simply, tough enough and, as stated above, there really is no significant difference.
I will end by saying that I am only talking about the 1911 here, with which I have extensive experience. I make no comment on other autos (double actions etc.) that many people have.
Feedback definitely welcomed.
Needless to say I handed him my pristine 35 year old S&W Model 29-2 .44 Magnum revolver (8 3/8 barrel) and he proceeded to swing out the cylinder, spin it, and, now picture this, while it was still spinning, forcefully slammed it shut by swinging the gun sharply to the side with the one and only hand he was holding the grip with.
Never have I witnessed such a display of (at best) ignorance or (at worst) arrogance. I didn't know whether to cry or knock his block off. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, and put my guns away, that revolver being the first and last he'd ever handle of my collection.
Now, my policy is that IF anyone is going to handle my guns, I tell them exactly what to do and not do BEFORE I let them do so, under close and constant supervision. I seldom let anyone mess with the equipment anymore, if you know what I mean.
As to the empty slide racking issue re 1911s: I have owned 1911s for over ten years now and have routinely taken them apart right down to the very last pin. From the way that they are made, I cannot see how racking the slide under ANY circumstances will have any effect on the hammer/sear mechanism EXCEPT perhaps in the manner described by "relliot" above.
Otherwise, the general issue solely becomes one of whether or not the slide is closing right on up to its final point of travel with significantly more force, if any, caused by the fact that there is no live round to strip off of the magazine and load into the chamber.
Now this raises two questions? One, does the slide close faster, and thus with more force and, if so, is the extra force significant enough to cause damage?
Two, if the force is significantly greater, what effects will it actually have on the specific parts whose job it is to stop the slide from going any further? Those parts would be the point of contact between the slide and the chamber area of the barrel (just oppsite the extractor), the two wide grooves in the slide itself and their mirror image on the top of the barrel, and finally the barrel connect. The slide pushes on the chamber area of the barrel which then causes it to move, via the barrel connect, up and forward, ultimately "locking" it with the slide and thus stopping the slide from moving any further forward (and ultimately getting launched right on off of the frame).
All of these parts function in exactly the same way whether or not a round is being chambered. The rim and shell casing absorb absolutely no impact or force since the slide does not contact it in any way but to push it forward, and this only up to a point. The ONLY difference in racking the slide empty or loaded is the very tiny amount of energy it takes to strip a round off of the mag and insert it into the chamber. Since this takes virtually no effort at all, the difference in force of an empty or loaded slide rack on the relevant parts is, for all practical purposes, NIL.
Therefore, my ultimate practical and experiential conclusion is that a 1911 can survive a fair amount of empty slide racking without ANY problem whatsoever. That being said, I would not endorse it as a regular practice per se. Once I became aware of even the slightest potential of some damage, I just stopped doing it (and I would CERTAINLY never do it to a gun that wasn't mine). Why do it? But if I were to foget and the slide got racked empty a few times, even quite a few times, I have no doubt that the gun would not be adversely affected in that it is made, quite simply, tough enough and, as stated above, there really is no significant difference.
I will end by saying that I am only talking about the 1911 here, with which I have extensive experience. I make no comment on other autos (double actions etc.) that many people have.
Feedback definitely welcomed.
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