Tuna Comp Testing

Johnny Boom

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I finally got out my 6BRA barrel with a Tuna Comp for some testing. I was using Lapua 6 BR Norma 105 Scenar-L factory rounds for fire forming, so I thought, let's take the tuner out for a spin :d

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I started moving the tuner at 0.5 increments, but then I realized I was going to burn ammo up really fast. Jumped to 1.0 increments, and moved on if the first two shots weren't touching. Shot 3 round groups to find the node at about 2.0. Shot a few increments around there.

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Dropped the elevation 0.1 mil and shot a 5 round group to confirm. One click to the right after, and next range trip I'll check it again.

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Ammo is decent for factory, SD of 14.63, ES of 63.53, average 2687 FPS over 36 shots. Like it's been said before, use good ammo. :)
 
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I've been really interested in tuners and their practicality, ever since they've started to explode in popularity in the "practical" shooting disciplines (PRS type events). I find it a fascinating topic, and I've even done my own testing with a tuner/brake combo.

These are my thoughts on the subject on the subject, as it pertains to the type of shooting I have experience in (field shooting, PRS, etc.):

- Through my own extensive testing (many 5-round groups), a tuner did not "shrink" my group sizes (also shooting 6BRA).

- 2or 3 shot groups are statistically irrelevant. You won't be able to find an optimized tune by shooting 2 or 3 shot groups, unless you fall into it by dumb luck. There is so much statistical variance to group sizes, that capturing only 2 or 3 round groups to try and determine if the tuner is making your groups shrink (or not), is a statistically insignificant and irrelevant sample size. This is like trying to optimize charge weight by using the "Satterlee method".

- Disciplines that have been using tuners for decades (BR, F-class), do not use tuners to "shrink groups". They do a full load workup completely independent of a tuner, optimizing the ammo to the rifle. A tuner for these uses is to keep their ammo "in tune" with the rifle as environmentals change over the course of shooting -we are talking very minute changes, that aren't really practical for "practical" shooting disciplines, and even the results in BR and F-class are debatable (as to how much the tuner is helping).

- Now that tuners are becoming popular in disciplines such as PRS, tuner advocates and sellers of tuners claim you can shortcut the reloading process with tuners. I think this is very ill-advised advice for numerous reasons. I don't think you will ever hear anyone from disciplines with decades of tuner experience advocate for this. Also, tuner results can be very difficult to parse and draw conclusions from, and you become reliant on the tuner to work with your ammo.

- Some say you can make factory ammo more precise with a tuner. I find these claims dubious at best, and the "evidence" presented so far is less than compelling. However I'm certainly open to this concept, I haven't tested it myself, but the current data to support this is very weak from what I've seen.

- Tuner results can be very difficult to interpret. Not only are people generally using too little sample sizes in which its nearly impossible to extract a meaningful conclusion from, but interpreting exactly what the tuner is doing, while trying to determine if any seemingly "errant" shots are from the tuner or from the shooter, can be very difficult. Top BR gunsmiths like Alex Wheeler typically recommend to their clients to shoot out a barrel or two just in competition, prior to adding a tuner. It's another variable to the equation, one that can add a lot of confusion. I personally believe that people should have a very strong grasp of the fundamentals, as well as internal and external ballistics, before adding another variable/input that manipulates ballistic results.

- Adding a tuner to a "practical" rifle is adding another potential failure point, and another variable to control. By their very design, tuners (through use of a collared weight), are designed to shift POI. If this tuner comes loose, it will create problems downrange.

Personally, I'm not sold on tuners. Perhaps for BR and F-class disciplines they have their purpose (both styles of competitions I have no personal experience in and can't speak to). But for practical style disciplines, I think their practicality and benefits are oversold and their downsides ignored.
 
Push the target out to 200... better yet, 300yds/ms. do a comparison of 3X3rds each at 2.0 and 2.5 setting. I think it will be real obvious which level to use.

Nice CONSISTENT shooting by the way... easy to get stats when a shooter can repeat their result.

I would still handload for the best results but it looks like you have a combo that runs this lot of factory ammo just fine.

Jerry
 
Looks promising. I used Lapua factory ammo for fireforming and barrel break in as well. Runout was awful and the es was 85. Yet over 50 rounds divided up into 10 - 5 shot groups it averaged .469. Best was in the .2s so in a pinch it gets the job done.
 
@kthomas, just wondering, what method do you use for seating depth testing?

@Jerry, thanks for the kind words. I was planning to stretch it out to 300 this weekend. Got a PR match coming up and that factory ammo will have to do for now.

I'm definitely going to handload once I have some fire-formed brass. Need to get some more velocity out of it.
 
I used to do 3 shot groups at different seating depths - thought I had found a real winner of a load with RDF's, but could never get 5 round groups to shoot worth a lick.

Now, I don't even really test seating depths anymore. I've found over multiple different tests, that within certain seating depths there isn't a "goldilocks" depth. The conclusions we tend to draw from 3-shot groups usually aren't the conclusions we would draw from larger sample sizes.

I only shoot Berger Hybrids now. I load them about 10 thou off the lands, and maintain the same OAL over the life of the barrel. I don't adjust for eroding lands. I don't generally see any degradation in precision until the barrel goes.
 
Looks promising. I used Lapua factory ammo for fireforming and barrel break in as well. Runout was awful and the es was 85. Yet over 50 rounds divided up into 10 - 5 shot groups it averaged .469. Best was in the .2s so in a pinch it gets the job done.

I used to do 3 shot groups at different seating depths - thought I had found a real winner of a load with RDF's, but could never get 5 round groups to shoot worth a lick.

Now, I don't even really test seating depths anymore. I've found over multiple different tests, that within certain seating depths there isn't a "goldilocks" depth. The conclusions we tend to draw from 3-shot groups usually aren't the conclusions we would draw from larger sample sizes.

I only shoot Berger Hybrids now. I load them about 10 thou off the lands, and maintain the same OAL over the life of the barrel. I don't adjust for eroding lands. I don't generally see any degradation in precision until the barrel goes.

Interesting. I have been frustrated comparing my 5 shot groups to others 3 shot groups, I will attempt to let that go. I’m getting a new barrel for my wannabe centerfire precision rifle so will see how that changes things.
 
Interesting. I have been frustrated comparing my 5 shot groups to others 3 shot groups, I will attempt to let that go. I’m getting a new barrel for my wannabe centerfire precision rifle so will see how that changes things.

A good quality barrel, a chamber optimized for your ammo, a good gunsmith to cut the chamber, along with quality components (Lapua brass, Berger bullets) is definitely a big part of the equation.
 
Interesting. I have been frustrated comparing my 5 shot groups to others 3 shot groups, I will attempt to let that go. I’m getting a new barrel for my wannabe centerfire precision rifle so will see how that changes things.

Everybody has their own way of doing things but I "break in" a new barrel by shooting 3rd groups at about 0.5gr intervals. Gives me enough data to get a good idea around what powder charge I need to be at the speed I want. Then I'll take that charge weight and load up 2x 3 rd groups at 3 different OALs (normally 20 thou off, 50 thou off, 80 thou off). When I look at the 2x 3 round groups for each OAL I'll composite the groups as well, not just look at them independent of each other. Then I choose the best performing OAL. If that charge and OAL shoot to my accuracy expectation (and have good ES/SD), I'll stop there, if not I'll load up 2x 3 round groups going 0.4gr above and below the prior charge in 0.2gr increments (so total of 30rds). From that round I'll pick the charge weight that shoots the tightest and has good ES/SD and then verify it with 2x 5 round groups. At that point, I've got 88 rounds down the barrel and I'll just keep shooting that load till the barrel is done speeding up (around 150ish rounds) at which point if the accuracy, SD/ES and speed are still where I like them, I stick with it. If not, I'll start dropping the powder charge to get back into the node I was in before barrel speed up. This is all for your regular short action calibers.
 
Everybody has their own way of doing things but I "break in" a new barrel by shooting 3rd groups at about 0.5gr intervals. Gives me enough data to get a good idea around what powder charge I need to be at the speed I want. Then I'll take that charge weight and load up 2x 3 rd groups at 3 different OALs (normally 20 thou off, 50 thou off, 80 thou off). When I look at the 2x 3 round groups for each OAL I'll composite the groups as well, not just look at them independent of each other. Then I choose the best performing OAL. If that charge and OAL shoot to my accuracy expectation (and have good ES/SD), I'll stop there, if not I'll load up 2x 3 round groups going 0.4gr above and below the prior charge in 0.2gr increments (so total of 30rds). From that round I'll pick the charge weight that shoots the tightest and has good ES/SD and then verify it with 2x 5 round groups. At that point, I've got 88 rounds down the barrel and I'll just keep shooting that load till the barrel is done speeding up (around 150ish rounds) at which point if the accuracy, SD/ES and speed are still where I like them, I stick with it. If not, I'll start dropping the powder charge to get back into the node I was in before barrel speed up. This is all for your regular short action calibers.

I used to do something pretty similar.

I've done a lot of testing with my 6BRA, including seating depth tests conducted over multiple days, shooting multiple 5 shot groups for each. One day, 10 thou may be the winner. The next day, it may be 15 or 20 thou (and the results are all very close). Averaged out over multiple days, they all shoot pretty much the same.

Same thing with powder charges. 30.3 grains may be the winner one day for ES/SD. Next day 30.4. Another day 30.6. All single digit SD. Averaged out over multiple days, all the charges within a 1 grain window (didn't really test beyond that) had essentially the same performance.

The more that I shoot and test things, the more I realize some of the small things we really fuss over don't matter that much. With good quality components, good consistent reloading practices, and good barrel/chamber/gunsmith work, I find that there isn't really a "goldilocks" seating depth or charge weight.
 
I have only done one morning of tuner testing. It was just to see what would happen to a great existing “non tuner” load. I was able to find a 2’s three shot group at 100. However a trip to 300 said it was worse than before.
I have since read that the tuner should be on a barrel, set at zero, work up a load via OCW, then OSD, then turn the tuner, but the tuner should be on when load development is happening.
My rifle shoots good without it, but I may use up components and make a second tuner load anyway to try again.
I am hoping this second load would be good at all distances and not just tuned for one.
 
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