Lever Actions and Calibers

Why not? said:
After more than 50 years of guiding and hunting, much of which involved both black and grizzly bears, my experience compels me to post as the odd man out in this discussion. While the 45-70 is a great hunting round it is not nearly the stopping cartridge many think. It has great penetration, but only marginal success as a quick killer.

Bears are not difficult to kill in usual hunting situations, no more so than a deer. If I am correct in understanding this thread, the concern here is not primarily defence, but that of unexpected defence that might occur during an ordinary hunting effort. This, in particular against a bear at close range or one in a charge. I have been involved in both on several occasions, and know others who have as well.

If I had my choice I would want nothing other than the rifle I handled and shot the best. Unless I had many, many, hundreds of rounds of offhand practice with relatively hard recoiling 45-70, it would be far from my first choice. Believe me when I tell you that the excitement of having a bear fall close enough to your feet that you can touch his open eye to check for reflex will be more than enough for that day. The closest I ever had was with my "little" Husqvarna 270 that I had used for many years, shot several thousand times at the range, hunting groundhogs and big game.

My friend Jared Wilkinson did exactly the same while hunting grouse with a 20 gauge single shot. The bear fell less than a single lone pace away.

Again, if I had my choice I would want nothing other than the rifle I handled and shot the best. No flies on the 45-70 except perhaps for recoil and limited range, but for an everyday hunting outfit, where I need to do more than worry about an unexpected bear encounter, your 30-06 would be my choice.

Best,
Ted
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Great input Ted and with your experience,:) also valued and much appreciated.
 
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Love that.
 
Yeah I would go with the 30-06 only if it had irons on it as well but the pair up of my current rifle and a 45-70 I feel would be pretty solid. Definitely will have to get comfortable with the rifle

I'm waiting to be approved to see the EE still, once I can I was going to browse and see what people have there. I'll take a look at the h&k you mentioned there
 
Best bear bush walking companion... Winchester71,348 Winchester,250gr Barnes bullet.

For tenting (with possible low light encounters)I like my Browning 71 carbine with Burris FastFireII red dot sight.
OnHfIBd.jpg


and for more casual bush strolls, my "hunting" Winchester 71rifle
wZwIjSI.jpg



Reliable(never had a failure to feed,(check out cartridge design). Powerful.
 
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Why not? said:
After more than 50 years of guiding and hunting, much of which involved both black and grizzly bears, my experience compels me to post as the odd man out in this discussion. While the 45-70 is a great hunting round it is not nearly the stopping cartridge many think. It has great penetration, but only marginal success as a quick killer.

Bears are not difficult to kill in usual hunting situations, no more so than a deer. If I am correct in understanding this thread, the concern here is not primarily defence, but that of unexpected defence that might occur during an ordinary hunting effort. This, in particular against a bear at close range or one in a charge. I have been involved in both on several occasions, and know others who have as well.

If I had my choice I would want nothing other than the rifle I handled and shot the best. Unless I had many, many, hundreds of rounds of offhand practice with relatively hard recoiling 45-70, it would be far from my first choice. Believe me when I tell you that the excitement of having a bear fall close enough to your feet that you can touch his open eye to check for reflex will be more than enough for that day. The closest I ever had was with my "little" Husqvarna 270 that I had used for many years, shot several thousand times at the range, hunting groundhogs and big game.

My friend Jared Wilkinson did exactly the same while hunting grouse with a 20 gauge single shot. The bear fell less than a single lone pace away.

Again, if I had my choice I would want nothing other than the rifle I handled and shot the best. No flies on the 45-70 except perhaps for recoil and limited range, but for an everyday hunting outfit, where I need to do more than worry about an unexpected bear encounter, your 30-06 would be my choice.

Best,
Ted
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Your points are very valid. In my case i put 100s of 45-70 rounds down range and use it as a target and main hunting rifle...for absolute certain the best gun to use is the one you cant miss with...in my experience the 45-70 and hard cast through heavy bone works better than a 12g
 
big bear said:
For tenting (with possible low light encounters)I like my Browning 71 carbine with Burris FastFireII red dot sight.
OnHfIBd.jpg


and for more casual bush strolls, my "hunting" Winchester 71rifle
wZwIjSI.jpg



Reliable(never had a failure to feed,(check out cartridge design). Powerful.
Click to expand...

Nice!! The model 71 in 348WCF is my favorite lever gun/calibre combo. Years back I had a standard grade Winchester that I 'foolishly' sold,:( a decission I regretted 2 minutes later. However, a short time later, at a local gun show, I picked up a near mint deluxe model 71 Winchester:d:d. This one I KEEP!!
 
obsessed1b said:
Your points are very valid. In my case i put 100s of 45-70 rounds down range and use it as a target and main hunting rifle...for absolute certain the best gun to use is the one you cant miss with...in my experience the 45-70 and hard cast through heavy bone works better than a 12g
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Me expierinces with the 45-70 be similar fer sure, but a rifled 12 bore tossing a 750-850 gr, full bore boolit (Paradox load) at a modest 1100-1200 fps will definitely flatten any pee'd off bear in close quarter situations so long as the hunters are tuned in & not fouling themselves in an urgent moment. ;)
 
Here’s my two cents, for hunting a 45/70 is a great caliber and it would be my choice when I am hunting for bear. I have also take a few moose with it. But as a camp/bear gun for the off season when you are just out and around in the bush, you can’t beat the short barrel 12 gauge. When a bear is charging and your blood is pumping, everything is happening so fast most people miss in that situation with a rifle. I think “candy cane” loads in a 12 gauge is much better. What I mean by that is alternating between buck shot and slugs. That gives you the best chance of hitting something either with a buck shot or better yet a slug. What ever you choose to use practice in those situations. Or as close as you can come to remaking a fake situation, like a bear charging. Try shooting some moving targets with a rifle see for your self it’s not easy.
 
In the 12 gauge, forget the buckshot and stick to slugs. Triple 000 buck will not reliably penetrate 1" plywood at 15 yards, so will not reliably penetrate heavy bone and destroy vitals on a grizzly bear. Hit them with that heavy slug in big bone first and follow up with extra shots ensuring placement in the vitals.

Otherwise, as stated, the rifle you hunt with and shoot best, is preferable to a new rifle you have limited experience with, regardless of action type or caliber/cartridge combination. Your 308 or 30-06 with 180-220 gr bullets will work in a pinch...just stay relaxed and calm, and ensure you are placing that bullet properly with the first shot. Follow up quickly, even if you are convinced the animal is dead. an extra cartridge or two is cheap insurance compared to your pain and suffering if it is not DRT.
Many a trapper or mountain man made do with 30-30's and other older firearms of significantly less power throughout the ages. They had one firearm and were well practiced in its use.
 
obsessed1b said:
I live in Northen AB in grizz country. I have two choice weapons. Marlin dark 45-70, and a 20" CRF bolt actionnin 30-06.
Any of the shorter marlin 45-70, 450, 444 will be good options for this purpose. Its possible to slick up the trigger/ action on your own and makes a huge difference. Cons for this type is range. As a hunting rifle you are sacrificing range.
Shoot a good heavy cast bullet at moderate velocities and your golden.

Carbine bolt action. I prefer a 20" barrel CRF w LVPO in QD rings and backup iron sights. I chose 30-06 w 200 or 220gr bullets but a 35whellen, 338 fed, 338-06, 338 wm, or 375 would also fit the bill. This would give you a very capable 400yd hunting rifle as well as more than adequate for protection.
A rem 600 in 350rem mag would be a great option if you dont like crf...

Either way you go make certain tge gun feeds, extracts and ejects flawlessly.
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Just a comment on the slicking up action. I was still in Langley, took my rifle to Rusty Woods in the hills above Mission. Fellow had the people skills of a undertaker.

New feed gate spring, action timing and trigger job, slicked everything up. One had to have very strong fingers to load it, trigger was like 10lbs, and it jammed after one shot on a black bear. IIRC, it was ready in 3/4 weeks, nice and slick with no jamming, easy to load, and about 4lb trigger pull. Recommend that shop, about $220.
 
45-70 is a great gun but like others have said, you better be able to shoot it. I’m not a big guy and I have no issue with recoil shooting a 45-70. If you buy a gun for self defence, don’t be cheap, buy some ammo and put a few hundred rounds through it practicing before you take it out and trust your life to it.
 
No real input. My Lever experience is 44 Mag, soon to be 45 LC, 30-30 & 38-55... no stopping guns if the league that you require.
Put lots of lead downrange.
Nod politely when well meaning folks tell you to get a bolt action...they just don't carry the same, do they?
 
As I'm sure others have said: For serious use, reliability trumps all, followed closely by operator confidence.

There has to be "enough bullet" downrange, and it has to land in the right spot. I wouldn't assume that any firearm/operator combination would work unless it was well proven (whatever that means to you). Levers can be really fussy...

Here's a different take: Personally, I think there is a great case to be made for a proven semiauto long gun for this application. They generally require less input from the operator in order to function properly. I've seen shooters get flustered operating manual actions under stress. There are other advantages making them worth considering for many
 
Although the 45/70 had never really intrested me. It would be very effective put in the right spot.
I’ve shot many animals and been apart of even more . With 243 up to 375ruger and all inbetween

I’ve had a off shot with a 375ruger that a big bore went 100yrds. I’ve had 243 just fold them on the spot not event a twitch.

Biggest cartridge you can afford to get confident shooting is key I think.
I’d take a small lever gun to pack for bear defence over my 375 bolt gun for sure.

Just because I have way more time behind a lever gun fast slinging lead then any bolt gun.

Cast boolits loaded down would be a great way to get time behind a 45/70 lever.
I’ll admit full house 45-70 is hard for me to run like a cowboy and keep on target
 
As stated the 4570 has a fair recoil and recovery for a follow up is important. My camp gun is a 14” 12gage, my scouting gun is a 44mag ranchhand full stock. Since you are setting up a reloading station how about 375 Winchester or 38-55 ( was drooling over one at the store yesterday) loaded in newer action be loaded to compete with the 375. Either can be great camp and hunting tool.
 
I think what most people forget that there is a big difference in shooting say a 45/70 especially with stiff hand loads from the bench compared to firing one or two shots at game when hunting(especially when the adrenaline kicks in),though one could eventually develop a flinch from continued firing of heavy loads from a bench over a period of time.Recoil sensitivity can be an individual thing though it has been proven that smaller people tend to handle it better do to the fact that there is less mass behind the gun so the person tends to roll with the felt recoil instead of totally absorbing/feeling it.
 
chasseur said:
I think what most people forget that there is a big difference in shooting say a 45/70 especially with stiff hand loads from the bench compared to firing one or two shots at game when hunting(especially when the adrenaline kicks in),though one could eventually develop a flinch from continued firing of heavy loads from a bench over a period of time.Recoil sensitivity can be an individual thing though it has been proven that smaller people tend to handle it better do to the fact that there is less mass behind the gun so the person tends to roll with the felt recoil instead of totally absorbing/feeling it.
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Agreed, however if you can't tolerate the recoil of a firearm from the bench long enough to confirm zero and from field positions long enough to become very proficient with it - you have no business carrying that firearm hunting and should certainly not be carrying it in a situation where you rely on it for defense.
 
Before you sink your money in a 45-70.
Try one out, fire a couple of boxes.
You might not like it as much.
I HAD 2 OF THEM A LEVER ACTION, BRAND NEW
AND A DOUBLE RIFLE , [BRAND NEW].
I JUST COULD NOT GET USED TO THEM.
I SOLD THEM AT A BIG LOSS.
IF YOU BUY ONE MAKE SUE IT HAS A REALLY GOOD RECOIL PAD.
JUST MY 2 CENTS WORTH.
 
I believe "Why Not" (Ted) has given you the best advice. The gun you shoot the most and shoot the best. His choice of 30-36 is an excellent all round cartridge that would serve you well.
 
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