7.63x25 for C96

AntiKhaos said:
7.62x25 and 7.63x25 are not the same thing. Even handgun loads of tokarev ammo are overpressure for c96's. Most surplus ammo is SMG loads which is even hotter.
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There is no such thing as SMG purposed x25. It's just a myth that won't die. Winchester and S&B ammo both produce the same velocity as Czech ammo, which is often incorrectly cited as SMG ammo. Win/SB are actually made on the same line so it shouldn't be a big surprise but that performance is not spectacular. My handloads and PPU JHP ammo are all pushing 85grn bullets over 1700fps.

X25 is completely unsuitable for a C96, even if it's in pristine condition. The potential result is the bolt flying into your face as happened with a shooter in the Lower Mainland.

If you are very hard up and your C96 isn't too special for corrosive primers you can make suitable ammunition from surplus x25. The specifics will depend on what surplus you have on hand.
 
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If that were my pistol, I wouldn't use surplus 7.62x25, which has identical dimensions, unless you can acquire one of the "Wolf Spring" kits

made specifially for this application and install it in your pistol.

Reloading is your best option, if your pistol still has its original recoil springs.

I found the PPU stuff to be on the "hot" side but not unsafe.
 
jonnyc said:
Total internet myth...a Tokarev SMG load does not exist.
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I have to agree. When I was researching it the most sensible thing I read was that the biggest problem with the surplus loads is lack of quality control can make some batches hotter than others. But apparently the original Mauser load was very slightly hotter than the specs given for the Tokarev load. Results may vary seems to be the order of the day.
 
The Mauser cartridge was just a modified 7.65 Borchardt much like the difference between the Mauser and Tokarev cartridges. If you have proof the Mauser was ever loaded to 1500+ fps I'd love to see it because I doubt it very much. The bolt stop will break on a C96 when using Tokarev ammo, sooner or later. Wolff Spring kit or not I just wouldn't do it because having the bolt smash into my face is entirely undesirable.

As I mentioned, someone who is either a CGN member or friends with some had it happen to him and while I can't recall the exact outcome he was supposedly grievously injured. Maybe someone with a better recollection will come along.
 
B said:
The Mauser cartridge was just a modified 7.65 Borchardt much like the difference between the Mauser and Tokarev cartridges. If you have proof the Mauser was ever loaded to 1500+ fps I'd love to see it because I doubt it very much. The bolt stop will break on a C96 when using Tokarev ammo, sooner or later. Wolff Spring kit or not I just wouldn't do it because having the bolt smash into my face is entirely undesirable.

As I mentioned, someone who is either a CGN member or friends with some had it happen to him and while I can't recall the exact outcome he was supposedly grievously injured. Maybe someone with a better recollection will come along.
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If memory serves, that particular incident was with a pistol with original springs and all of the springs had collapsed before it broke.

The springs are there as a buffer to prevent damage to components, such as the bolt stop, and to return the bolt to battery.

I picked up a C96 that had both of the return springs broken into little pieces. I replaced the bolt stop because it was damaged from using surplus ammo.

Look it up on the internet but the Germans issued a warning about using Russian 7.62x25 in the C96 pistols they issued.

It was for emergency use only, if their normal issue ammo wasn't available.
 
^Well your last two sentences just reinforce my point. It can be done, has been done and will continue to be done but it's something I personally just wouldn't recommend especially if that's just what you are going to feed it exclusively.

Some Tokarev ammo is fairly mild, I almost thought my Labradar was broken when I saw PPU 85grn FMJ producing a relatively low 1400fps. That is pretty much 7.63 territory. Czech AYM is much hotter at 1600+ and Czech BXN at 1550+. I'd probably avoid that stuff...
 
Chez BXN 53 is probably the hottest load in this caliber that I seen. I measured it once and on average it was 1700fps. So it is way too hot for broomhandle. The best way to feed these pistols is to buy some quantity of brass cased 7.62x25 and see how it fires. If it has violent ejection then the ammo has to be downloaded. or look for other lot of ammo. I have seen polish lots and some Chez aym 50s lots as well as some Russian 1949 lots out there that have brass cases. On average brass cased 7.62 tok is milder than steel cased ammo. Steel cased ammo is what destroys these pistols.

The best way to download the hot ammo is to pull bullets and reduce the charge by few grains or 10-15% and then obviously recharge cases and reseat the bullets. This is obviously requires some reloading equipment like dies, scales, press etc.
If no equipment available or shooter is non reloader then no other choice but to buy proper ammo or take up reloading as a hobby.
 
"On average brass cased 7.62 tok is milder than steel cased ammo. Steel cased ammo is what destroys these pistols."

WTH??? Got any documentation on that???
 
gewehr76 said:
The best way to download the hot ammo is to pull bullets and reduce the charge by few grains or 10-15% and then obviously recharge cases and reseat the bullets. This is obviously requires some reloading equipment like dies, scales, press etc.
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I played in this sand box when I was younger. Due to a lack of 7.62 Mauser, I downloaded all kinds of tok surplus ammo, but wasn't measuring the speed of that surplus, so no proper baseline was established as a starting point before doing so. Rookie mistake: Some of that (10% downloaded by me) ammo was still hot enough to jam the slide against the bolt stop (new woffe springs were installed by me prior to testing and the bolt stop was a Numrich replacement installed by the previous owner). So, if you go down this road as as others had mentioned, replace the springs and boltstop and have at it, carefully.
 
OneBarfly said:
I played in this sand box when I was younger. Due to a lack of 7.62 Mauser, I downloaded all kinds of tok surplus ammo, but wasn't measuring the speed of that surplus, so no proper baseline was established as a starting point before doing so. Rookie mistake: Some of that (10% downloaded by me) ammo was still hot enough to jam the slide against the bolt stop (new woffe springs were installed by me prior to testing and the bolt stop was a Numrich replacement installed by the previous owner). So, if you go down this road as as others had mentioned, replace the springs and boltstop and have at it, carefully.
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Yes good advise, sound firearm is good idea to have when doing this type of load development. I found that reducing 7.62 tok charge capacity by 30% cycled my swiss 30 luger quite nicely. Same bullet , powder and case only shorter case by 3 mm.
 
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