22LR Limitations - Realistic 5 Shot Group Size - 50 yards?

D

-Doug-

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Scenario:

Distance = 50 yards
Bench Shooting
Indoor Range (no wind)

Ammo - whatever match grade ammo you like
Rifle - CZ457 1lb trigger or equivalent
I’m excluding the high end Voodoo, RimX, custom barrel…$3000 plus setups from this question.
Just your basic Varmint, T1x, B14 factory rifle with maybe a trigger job.

Question:
What is a realistic consistent 5 shot group size (assuming shooting is doing their part) that should be expected from the above scenario?

Reason for Question:

I was playing around with 5 shot groups with my 457 Varmint (not the MTR) shooting SK standard at 50 yards. I shot a total of 50 five shot groups and averaged a group size of 0.45”.
The majority of my groups were in the .35-.44 range.
There were a handful of groups around .6-.8”groups where I noticeably felt like I messed up and there were. handful of groups around .2” where I was amazed.
 
While some of my shooting is at 50 yards and Metres, the test at 100 is more meaningful to me.
Under 1" at 100 y/m is what I strive to achieve and for 10 shots.
It ultimately lies in the quality of the ammo, the equipment and the technique being employed by the shooter.
"My rifle puts them all in one hole" or "My rifle loves Blazer" is generally a love affair that ends on game day.
Reading the wind and shooting over wind flags will disclose errors even when believing there is no wind.
Sometimes accuracy can be bought but lots find out the "Archer" is the limiting factor.
It is a science onto itself. When it appears all else is failing refer to the definition of insanity.
 
At the risk of being too wordy, I'll offer the following.

If the shooter and wind are removed from the equation, there are basically two factors that determine accuracy performance.

One is the barrel, or more precisely, the bore. Not all .22LR barrels are equal. Some, even from the same manufacturer, are better than others, including those referred to in the OP.

The second is the ammo. It's important to appreciate that no .22LR ammo, including match, shoots monolithically. That is to say, there is no variety of match ammo that behaves in the same way from one lot to another. Different lots of the same variety, say SK Rifle Match, may well perform unequally.

Given a good quality barrel, ammo selection can make all the difference.

What's a good standard for 50 yards without interference from the wind? With a good rifle and the right ammo, the 1/2" challenge (five consecutive five-shot groups all under 1/2" center-to-center) is less of a challenge than it will be for an average rifle with random ammo. Note, however, it's not the 1/2" ctc that's a challenge, but rather the five consecutive groups of that size.

There's a thread with this challenge here on CGN https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...-at-50-yards-meters-all-day!-Really-Prove-it!


-Doug- said:
Reason for Question:

I was playing around with 5 shot groups with my 457 Varmint (not the MTR) shooting SK standard at 50 yards. I shot a total of 50 five shot groups and averaged a group size of 0.45”.
The majority of my groups were in the .35-.44 range.
There were a handful of groups around .6-.8”groups where I noticeably felt like I messed up and there were. handful of groups around .2” where I was amazed.
Click to expand...

It appears like you have a CZ with a decent barrel. Your results reflect the relatively inconsistent, but expected, performance of SK Standard Plus. It's possible to shoot some really nice and small groups around .2". At the same time there will be groups around .6 - .8" and perhaps even larger.

That's normal with this grade of ammo. Years ago I shot many cases of this variety and used to wonder what I was doing wrong when the occasional small groups were only infrequently repeated. It's not the shooter but the ammo. Of course the answer is not simply spending more on ammo to guarantee consistent results. The problem is that .22LR ammo can be somewhat capricious, more so with lesser grades but even with more expensive varieties.
 
I am sure operator error played a part in many of my larger group sizes.
Other times I know for a fact that I did my part yet a round went flying higher than the others.

Not too long ago I considered CCi standard velocity “high end stuff” compared to the cheaper blazer or federal blue box I was shooting. SK standard is my new “high end stuff” and for my financial well being I don’t see myself trying anything more expensive!
 
-Doug- said:
Question:
What is a realistic consistent 5 shot group size (assuming shooting is doing their part) that should be expected from the above scenario?

Reason for Question:

I was playing around with 5 shot groups with my 457 Varmint (not the MTR) shooting SK standard at 50 yards. I shot a total of 50 five shot groups and averaged a group size of 0.45”.
The majority of my groups were in the .35-.44 range.
There were a handful of groups around .6-.8”groups where I noticeably felt like I messed up and there were. handful of groups around .2” where I was amazed.
Click to expand...

Not much for me to add, other than to corroborate that you're achieving the expected performance of the listed rifle and ammo. Factory rifles do bellcurve in their performance, and I'd say your's skews onto the higher performing side of the bellcurve. I've had several CZ's that shot most groups over 1" at 50 yards. You may find that the consistency improves with a few thousand rounds down the tube, as some imperfections in the leade area of the chamber smooth out. CZ is notorious for running their reamers well past their sharp, crisp service life and leaving large nasty burrs in the chamber. As an example of how this poor workmanship in cutting the chamber affects performance, I took my 455 Full Stock barrel that was a 1" shooter, lapped out the chamber burrs and recrowned it. I was then able to shoot a successful 1/2" challenge target with it and the following target shot with BBM HV ammo demonstrates it now consistently performs in the 0.4"-0.6" range on average with this ammo. I would grade that performance right in the middle of the CZ bellcurve. I would say your average mid-grade .22 (Savage, CZ and the like) should perform as such, stepping up to Anschütz, Tikka, etc. is when you want to have a better chance at getting a sub 1/2" rifle.

 
Some years ago I acquired a Schultz and Larsen Model 61 "free rifle" - is a heavy barrel, 22 Long Rifle, single shot. I did some reading - likely got much of it muddled - but how I remember it - those rifles made for or used in World's and Olympic competition - 50 meters - "free rifle" - about no rules, except no optics and no "artificial supports" - so no sandbags, bipods, etc. Shooting slings, hand stops, extended palm rests were used as appropriate for the position. The thing is a behemoth - like 15 pounds or so. The rear aperture sight assembly alone, is close to a pound in weight. And the front sight is offset to the left about 1/4" from the bore - so that rear aperture sight is offset similarly. Is / was made for 50 meter bullseye target competition - so was used circa 1960's - with likely the best ammo available then, by probably world's best shooters.

It has two triggers - front one is "backwards" - when you click it, nothing happens, except rear trigger is now "set" - trip that rear one and the rifle fires. At least two small set screws to adjust the pull (weight and travel ?) on rear trigger - and the rear trigger stem is also adjustable forward and rearward to create "length of pull" from the pistol grip. Might be "old hat" to competitors - certainly not like anything I had seen in rural Sask or Manitoba!

Is amazing to me, but these rifles eventually replaced with "better" shooters - I have no clue what that could be - no doubt by Anschutz or similar - no doubt some Russian made rifles might have been used as well?

I read one small bore free rifle competition result - I do not know what brand rifle or ammo that the shooters were using - they were from different countries, as I recall - so 10 shots prone, 10 shots kneeling, 10 shots seated on ground and 10 shots standing freehand - was like 6 or so competitors tied at perfect 400 scores - was a standing off-hand, shoulder to shoulder, "sudden death" elimination to establish the "winner". I since acquired what is claimed to be official 50 meter small bore targets - the 10 ring measures about .44". So those various shooters, from 4 positions, cumulatively fired into or got a piece of that .44" ring - 40 times in a row - at 50 meters - in 1960's (?), without scopes or artificial rests. If you are asking what good shooting with a .22 looks like, I think they did that - way back when.

I had read a Schultz and Larsen advertisement that the Model 61 was designed as an "understudy" for their Model 62 - which was a "full bore" free rifle - sights were offset from barrel - like Win Model 70 - so that rising heat waves had less affect on the sighting picture for the shooter.
 
Last edited:
skwerl said:
As Horseman writes, the challenge is in repetition 5 shots are
good but 10 shots takes endurance.
Click to expand...

The 10 shot group is hard. Even if you have an amazing gun and glass, that is only half the battle. VS a five shot group alot of other things come into play. Equipment such as your rear bag, how easily distracted you are by the fly buzzing around your head, excitement followed by anxiety chasing a good group followed by anger which is amplified by each group you shoot after that group which ends in shooting steel instead. It's why some of us at GB stopped playing golf.
 
With good ammo and good form (that takes time and focus) your CZ should shoot under 3/4” with many being under 1/2. To sit down and expect to get under 1/2 is lots of work and practice.
 
The pros have covered the important points, but to summarize with 22LR:
-unless you overlay the groups, 5 shots is too few to tell the actual story about what you can expect
-ammo, ammo, ammo choice is what makes the difference
-BR stocks or a chassis, solid front support and real rear bag, along with practice ($K’s of gear and ammo) are necessary to take you out of the wobble equation. Good gear and time shooting paper are the way
-then it’s all back to ammo, ammo, ammo.

Under 1/2” at 50 for 7/10 shots is not terribly difficult. 5 consecutive groups of 10 under 1/2”, well do you want the truth, or “once I did this”?
 
Grizzlypeg said:
Can you explain this?
Click to expand...

Did you ever see the targets with a square above the crosshair? AFAIK bench guys set their POI to be an inch of so above their scope cross hair. That way you always aim at dead center, but the bullet doesn't cut or rip your point of aim. Your precision is what matters in group size, not accuracy.

Post 5 shows this. They aren't impacting like that because he doesn't know how to drop his elevation by 6 clicks. It's intentional.
 
Grizzlypeg said:
Can you explain this?
Click to expand...

if you shoot at your,aiming point and actually hit it then the aiming point becomes unreadable
think about it
aim at a uneven hole in your paper and see how the groups open up
aim at a 1/2 then 3/4 the. 1.2 inch tear or uneven hole and see the groups go wild

Jeff
 
Potashminer said:
Some years ago I acquired a Schultz and Larsen Model 61 "free rifle" - is a heavy barrel, 22 Long Rifle, single shot. I did some reading - likely got much of it muddled - but how I remember it - those rifles made for or used in World's and Olympic competition - 50 meters - "free rifle" - about no rules, except no optics and no "artificial supports" - so no sandbags, bipods, etc. Shooting slings, hand stops, extended palm rests were used as appropriate for the position. The thing is a behemoth - like 15 pounds or so. The rear aperture sight assembly alone, is close to a pound in weight. And the front sight is offset to the left about 1/4" from the bore - so that rear aperture sight is offset similarly. Is / was made for 50 meter bullseye target competition - so was used circa 1960's - with likely the best ammo available then, by probably world's best shooters.

It has two triggers - front one is "backwards" - when you click it, nothing happens, except rear trigger is now "set" - trip that rear one and the rifle fires. At least two small set screws to adjust the pull (weight and travel ?) on rear trigger - and the rear trigger stem is also adjustable forward and rearward to create "length of pull" from the pistol grip. Might be "old hat" to competitors - certainly not like anything I had seen in rural Sask or Manitoba!

Is amazing to me, but these rifles eventually replaced with "better" shooters - I have no clue what that could be - no doubt by Anschutz or similar - no doubt some Russian made rifles might have been used as well?

I read one small bore free rifle competition result - I do not know what brand rifle or ammo that the shooters were using - they were from different countries, as I recall - so 10 shots prone, 10 shots kneeling, 10 shots seated on ground and 10 shots standing freehand - was like 6 or so competitors tied at perfect 400 scores - was a standing off-hand, shoulder to shoulder, "sudden death" elimination to establish the "winner". I since acquired what is claimed to be official 50 meter small bore targets - the 10 ring measures about .44". So those various shooters, from 4 positions, cumulatively fired into or got a piece of that .44" ring - 40 times in a row - at 50 meters - in 1960's (?), without scopes or artificial rests. If you are asking what good shooting with a .22 looks like, I think they did that - way back when.

I had read a Schultz and Larsen advertisement that the Model 61 was designed as an "understudy" for their Model 62 - which was a "full bore" free rifle - sights were offset from barrel - like Win Model 70 - so that rising heat waves had less affect on the sighting picture for the shooter.
Click to expand...

Those who compete in 50m Free Rifle are hard core, shooting in 30 C temperature wearing a full set of leather shooting jacket and pant is no joke.
50m Free pistol on the other hand , you can shoot in a pair of short and t shirt .... hahaha

Back to the topic, I know of Free Rifle shooters that test every new batch of ammo, if it works they tried to buy as much of the same production lot as possible.
 
Jahnj0584 said:
Did you ever see the targets with a square above the crosshair? AFAIK bench guys set their POI to be an inch of so above their scope cross hair. That way you always aim at dead center, but the bullet doesn't cut or rip your point of aim. Your precision is what matters in group size, not accuracy.

Post 5 shows this. They aren't impacting like that because he doesn't know how to drop his elevation by 6 clicks. It's intentional.
Click to expand...

That square on bench rest target - I might have it wrong, but I think the centre of the square is the aiming point - when you place your crosshairs precisely in the middle, you will see four equal quadrants - when my eyes were younger, was astounding how well your eye could tell when they were not exactly the same to each other - so in effect, not aiming at anything - aiming at the centre of a vacant white square. When younger, I used 1" squares - last time out with my 9.3x62 they were more like 2.5" squares - seemed to still work, though. With light pencil, I had drawn a 1" diameter circle that was centered 3" above the centre of that square - that circle I could not see from the firing line - when I could get three holes in the circle, I considered the rifle to be "sighted in" at 100 yards - hitting 3" high.
 
wai762 said:
Those who compete in 50m Free Rifle are hard core, shooting in 30 C temperature wearing a full set of leather shooting jacket and pant is no joke.
50m Free pistol on the other hand , you can shoot in a pair of short and t shirt .... hahaha
Click to expand...

"Free Rifle" is an archaic term that refers to the type of rifle free of weight restrictions. Today it's referred to as Position Shooting (3P for kneeling, prone, and standing) and is the type of shooting done in the Olympics and international ISSF events. Shooters could use older smallbores that were called "Free Rifles" but they usually aren't competitive with modern smallbore position rifles.

Shooters shoot in a variety of temperatures, and only when they are outdoors in warmer climes and times of the year would they shoot in 30 C temps. When competitions are held indoors it's likely quite comfortable.
 
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