45-70 ring die for bulging cases

bandanaman

bandanaman

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My cases are developing a problem chambering approximately .444 ahead of the base of the cartridge. There is a bulge of .004-005 .Where as the case is .499 just ahead of the rim I am measuring .504 . They are too heavy to chamber by thumb and stiff enough I feel it is likely to damage the extractor. To avoid full length resizing I have read about making a ring die to resize the portion just ahead of the rim for about 1/2 inch. It does appear as I have read to be where the case brass starts to taper. I am using Starline brass .I have not found in my research where this is an area where one would expect to get a "ringed chamber" .Any insight would be appreciated as this hasn't been a topic anyone I shoot with has talked about as yet.
I tried again to down size some photos to post but I have reached my limit of patience, should have had some kids to sort this computer stuff out.....
 
I think that is common in straight wall case's.
Full length sizing is a good practice for lever guns IMO.
 
gunlaker said:
Have you thought of trying a sizing die for a longer case, like .45-90 or longer? They shouldn't size the rest of the .45-70 case as much as a FL die.

Chris.
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That's seems like something that's worth looking into . I'll have to ask around with the guys I shoot with and maybe I can borrow some dies and test it out. I would be looking at buying some kind of die to make any kind of custom sizer anyways. I kind of want to avoid full length resizing for now and have more case capacity and load flexibility.
 
iron cat said:
Size it down until it will go into the case if you have to.
Chambering trumps case capacity every time .
Cat
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I hear what you are saying and you are right of course ! I've been tinkering with this rifle for several years and still consider myself a "newbie" .There are so many avenues and hurdles in BPCR that make it interesting. This is a bump in the road so to speak so I am exploring possible options.
 
Full length sizing does not reduce dimension enough to reduce case capacity in any measurable ways. The reason not to full length resize is to get a better fit in the rifle chamber and very little bullet friction if any, on long, heavy bullet, seated partially out of the case for target rifle.
That it.

If you need the ´extra case capacity lost to sizing’ , you have a problem. You need a bigger caliber (45/90, 45/120 if you shoot black ) or a different load, bullet.

Not to full length resize for the reasons you state is not valid in regards of the problems you experience.
 
^^^^this^^^
two things make me suspicious that you do have a bulged/ringed chamber, they can appear anywhere in the length of the cartridge and the second is that you are concerned about powder space...trying to mimic a .458 win mag with a 45-70 is a viable recipe.
 
Janeau said:
Full length sizing does not reduce dimension enough to reduce case capacity in any measurable ways. The reason not to full length resize is to get a better fit in the rifle chamber and very little bullet friction if any, on long, heavy bullet, seated partially out of the case for target rifle.
That it.

If you need the ´extra case capacity lost to sizing’ , you have a problem. You need a bigger caliber (45/90, 45/120 if you shoot black ) or a different load, bullet.

Not to full length resize for the reasons you state is not valid in regards of the problems you experience.
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Thanks for your input, like I said I know I have a lot to learn and if you don't ask you don't find out. I think at times I fall prey to information overload and get my facts confused .Thanks again.
 
How about using the Lee factory crimp die?
It has a carbide ring in it that is supposed to remove bulges from straight wall cases
 
I do not resize my brass. I anneal them after 5 firings. I only resize the neck slightly after I seat the bullet only enough to keep it from falling out. I do not get any rings or bulges in my cases. BTW I only shoot with BP. Have you thought of having someone do a casting of your chamber? Maybe your chamber is off spec.
 
MC One Shot said:
I do not resize my brass. I anneal them after 5 firings. I only resize the neck slightly after I seat the bullet only enough to keep it from falling out. I do not get any rings or bulges in my cases. BTW I only shoot with BP. Have you thought of having someone do a casting of your chamber? Maybe your chamber is off spec.
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It might be time to re melt my cerrosafe and do another casting and see if there 's anything to see. I have just started this last year annealing my brass. I have been doing it each time I reload but I don't think with the amount of brass I am using any have been annealed more than twice as yet. I only shoot BP out of this rifle as well I have been neck sizing the diameter of my bullet approximately .459.This last time I belled the case mouths a little more than I liked and put a little crimp by hand so they didn't scrape[scrape is a harsh word but you could feel a bit of friction] chambering. Prior to this last reloading I did not bell and for the most part got away with it but in cleaning the die I found a few shavings so went to belling them. The most powder I have experimented with as yet has been 65.0 gr. of Goex 2F or 1 1/2 F Olde Eynsford .Not necessarily hot loads I understand as things go. I am careful when I compress and seat bullets to ensure there's no space but like anything I guess pilot error could come into play. I am off to the range Thursday as a friend of mine says to mirror polish a few rounds and feels any markings on the case after extraction may tell a story. Possibly do a chamber cast after that....
 
Bandanamsan, here is a thought that might help you. Years ago I had a C. Sharps highwall and it was cut with a pretty oversized chamber near the base. After a case was fired a bunch of times it would get hard to extract. I mentioned the problem to Dave at Reliable Gun ( the father of the guys who own it now ). He was an older guy who likely had seen a lot of old single shots. He said that sometimes if the chamber was a bit sloppy, the extractor might not be cut to match it properly and the extractor would then grab the bulge in the case. The simple test was to remove the extractor and see if the cases still stick in the chamber. Of course you have to extract them yourself gently with a light cleaning rod. He was 100% correct with his diagnosis on my rifle. I wrapped some emory cloth around a fired case and carefully "tuned up" the extractor so it cleared the bulge on the cases. Fixed!

I hope that's useful.

Chris.
 
gunlaker said:
Bandanamsan, here is a thought that might help you. Years ago I had a C. Sharps highwall and it was cut with a pretty oversized chamber near the base. After a case was fired a bunch of times it would get hard to extract. I mentioned the problem to Dave at Reliable Gun ( the father of the guys who own it now ). He was an older guy who likely had seen a lot of old single shots. He said that sometimes if the chamber was a bit sloppy, the extractor might not be cut to match it properly and the extractor would then grab the bulge in the case. The simple test was to remove the extractor and see if the cases still stick in the chamber. Of course you have to extract them yourself gently with a light cleaning rod. He was 100% correct with his diagnosis on my rifle. I wrapped some emory cloth around a fired case and carefully "tuned up" the extractor so it cleared the bulge on the cases. Fixed!

I hope that's useful.

Chris.
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Where I am sitting now is with a cleaned ,fired case. On trying to chamber an empty case as a test it hangs up about .361 from being fully seated. The extractor moves freely between barrel and case rim .At the moment I don't recall having issues so much in ejecting a spent cartridge as I am am in chambering a live one. If I seat one of these with what I feel is excessive thumb pressure I feel I would damage the extractor should I want to remove it without firing .I don't know if I am missing something here ? I remember Dave ,I set him up once with some chemical stripper to remove a polyurethane finish on a stock he was working on many ,many years ago, nice guy.
 
I am hoping there is no issue with my rifle of course. I have read about this same apparent problem in "Things You Should Know About Shooting The Black Powder Cartridge Rifle " by Paul Mathews. Chapter two "Resizing Without Fireforming" I am keeping my fingers crossed as then the next thing I would be looking for is a barrel source and gunsmith to do the work.......
 
Headspace was previously mentioned and as best as I can measure .052mm/.00205in. slides between the falling block and barrel freely where as .094mm/.0037in feels really really tight and I am hesitant to try and fully close the breech. To my understanding this falls into an acceptable amount of headspace if I am doing this correctly.....[ .146mm/.00575in will absolutely not go in]
 
Do you orient the cases the same way every time? If your chamber is slightly oval ( I've never seen this, just heard of the possibility ) then you might always have to orient a fireformed case the same way.

0.002" is perfect IMO, but then I am no gunsmith. You'll have some variance anyway because brass manufacturers for .45-70 brass seem to have considerable variance on rim thickness. I've measured some WW cases that had rims that were several thousandths thicker on one side than the other. Years ago I even had a couple of batches of Starline .45-70 that had rims under 0.060" thick. I didn't use those though.

Chris.
 
gunlaker said:
Do you orient the cases the same way every time? If your chamber is slightly oval ( I've never seen this, just heard of the possibility ) then you might always have to orient a fireformed case the same way.

0.002" is perfect IMO, but then I am no gunsmith. You'll have some variance anyway because brass manufacturers for .45-70 brass seem to have considerable variance on rim thickness. I've measured some WW cases that had rims that were several thousandths thicker on one side than the other. Years ago I even had a couple of batches of Starline .45-70 that had rims under 0.060" thick. I didn't use those though.

Chris.
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My headspace seems to fall some where between .002 and .0037. I do try and orientate my brass on firing and I am using Starline brass where the rims appear to be pretty consistent at .0065 .Also rotating the case in the chamber does not appear to make any difference.
 
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