I won't call you a cranky old git, Pinfire, but my early hunting days were with a full choked single barrel 16 G Cooey and the effective pattern tested to be about 8 inches wide at ruffed grouse flight ranges, which is to say 20-40 feet. Hitting a rapidly vanishing bird under those conditions wasn't outstandingly easier than shooting them out of the air with a rifle.
First shotgun recommendation for hunting grouse
- Thread starter Ottawa76
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I won't call you a cranky old git, Pinfire, but my early hunting days were with a full choked single barrel 16 G Cooey and the effective pattern tested to be about 8 inches wide at ruffed grouse flight ranges, which is to say 20-40 feet. Hitting a rapidly vanishing bird under those conditions wasn't outstandingly easier than shooting them out of the air with a rifle.
Anyone wing shooting grouse with a little .410 is going to be sending most of the birds they shoot at off with 1-2 pellets in them, leaving them to die a painful ingering death and then fox food.
.410 isn't versatile enough IMO. One isn't over-gunned with the 20 for partridge.
Yet if you're chambered and loaded with 4 shot, in 3" magnum, you're good for any ducks that pops up, and even the occasional close goose.
If you have slugs with you(game laws permitting), you've got all your bases covered.
Depends on the nature of the birds in your area. Up here in Northern Ontario, you gotta kick them in the arse to make them fly. I shoot a lot of birds, all with cooeys, 410, 28, 20 and 16. I do pull off wing shots once in a while too. However, when I lived in Nova Scotia, it was IC choke all the way, those birds were spooky!
Indeed. At close range, the spread of a shotgun is minimal, and I would argue choke will not have a great effect close in. Physics and geometry haven't changed much over the years.
Let's imagine the general optimal effective range of a shotgun is measured at a 30-inch circle at 40 yards. For ease of numbers, a 12-bore firing 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 ounce of 7 1/2 shot is about 400 pellets. This creates a cone-like isosceles triangle with an outward spread of 30 inches, and sides 1440 inches long - very narrow indeed. Without the need of getting into fancy mathematics, I expect the width of the cone at 20 yards will be about 15 inches, and at 10 yards, about half of that, as you say. A Full Choke should deliver 70%, or 280 pellets, within the circle at 40 yards. You cannot have fewer pellets at closer ranges than these numbers within the cone at 10 or 20 or 30 yards. The rest, 120 pellets, go...somewhere. With a Modified Choke, you should get 60%, or 240 pellets, within your target circle. About 160 pellets go somewhere else. Finally, an Improved Cylinder choke will deliver 50%, or 200 pellets, within the target circle, with the same amount going elsewhere. Within the expanding cone up to 40 yards, the difference between each level of choke is 40 pellets, or 80 pellets between Imp Cyl and Full. Not a whole lot.
If you are aiming to hit your target within that theoretical cone (ie. you are aiming on-target), then you will hit it regardless of the choke (I don't feel reassured that shooting 200 pellets on-target is better than 280...). If you are counting on being lucky with the 120, 160 or 200 pellets flying outside that cone, well OK, that can be a strategy for extra kills. But how much wider that the 30-inch-circle-at-40-yards do these travel? At 10, 20 or thirty yards, does it give you an extra inch of width? Two? Yes, the laws of probabilities mean you will get extra kills, and I imagine for competitive clay shooting it makes all the difference between a win and second place. For hunting, I would rather play the odds that aiming correctly gives me, rather than count on the pinch of pellets that fall outside the cone.
I am not writing this to tussle with my dear fellow CGNers, whose opinions and experience I do respect, but only to clarify my thinking on the subject, on why I do not place much faith in the theology of choke. You are free to disagree, or to tell me my physics and geometry are way off. I relish constructive discussion, and I am most happy to be proven wrong. Writing about the British gun trade has taught me that what we know as fact can change with more study and research.
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You are correct sir. I can attest to some very far shots on clays and crows with mere cylinder chokes. I do like tighter chokes myself for clays. Choke for smoke I like to grind them up. For grouse I generally use ic and mod in a sxs 20ga as in northern Ontario shots are close and I don't want to tear them up. I've also never had an issue flushing them and shooting them with a 410
Gentleman my disagree but I believe many a bird gets hit with just the fringe of a full choke pattern and some do come down, but I'm also willing to bet many more fly off to die in the manner I described in my comment about hunting airborne grouse with .410s. Plus, I need all the help I can get, voodoo or not (but it isn't voodoo).
^this.
I think from a shooting POV, clays/grouse...it would be awfully hard to beat an O/U. However, decent ones aren't cheap (even used) nor would you want to be caught in the rain with one a long way from the truck. I know a guy who found himself in this situation...lol
The Ithaca 37 is a splendid gun, and I think if more people had actually held one/shot one...they wouldn't carry the low asking prices they do. If you (for some reason) had to field strip a pump gun, you'd probably wish it WASN'T a 37 or a Browning BPS. That should basically never be required with even a mediocre gun maintenance regiment, but IF it were....you'd be wishing you had an 870 in your hands.
There are numerous "Remington 870 vs Mossberg 500" threads here on CGN, and elsewhere. Countless "new Remingtons suck" threads too. There is no debate about whether or not older Wingmasters were superior guns, but new Wingmasters are nothing to scoff at....nor are even decently-maintained 870 Express models. If you're a person who leaves a wet gun in a soft case for days/weeks at a time, I suspect you'd think all guns have poor finishes. Surprise surprise, the most inexpensive pump Remington has ever made is no exception. I've come to really like Mossberg 500s, and in fact, would probably prefer to carry one long distances more than I'd like to carry an 870. (has an aluminum receiver/lighter feeling gun) However, while both are easily field stripped, the nod goes to the 870 for how easy it is. (just my opinion)
As a place to start, I'd look for an older 20ga Wingmaster LW. Large frame 20ga Wingmasters are out there, so learn the difference and how to recognize them. I've seen large frame Wingmasters with asking prices that rival the LWs. Beautiful guns too, but not worth what the LWs are in my estimation.
Average grouse flight range is 6 to 14 yards???
So you are talking steel shot...
I'll make that 6 to 20 on a good flush in average grouse cover here. That's the range at which they take off in any kind of such cover, and then they swerve and flash around out of sight through more of it. Although most of them undoubtedly walk away when they hear you coming from further off, so the trick is to surprise them by walking lightly or like something other than a human. And if you get close and start stepping like a hunting fox (pause, take a step, pause), they'll take to the air almost immediately because that's what our fox brethren do just before springing.
Ranger Dave
Regular
I use a 20 gauge MOD choke myself. Wingmaster or Silver. 12 gauge is such over kill. I sometimes walk with a single shot 410 but you have to be close and they cant be moving. I dont think a 410 makes for a great grouse gun. 20 gauge single shot would be nice.
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
+1, seems like many people use too-much choke.
Can't help you with skeet, but for chasing birds, pretty much anything can be made to work.
- Personally, I like a SxS, straight stock, double triggers
If buying used, I think there are some decent deals to be found on Husqvarna/Merkel/BRNO.
I have hunted grouse seriously for the last 15 years. You want something light as you will be putting miles on, this is the only area where I look for a light gun. My most successful gun was a Rossi single shot .410. I foolishly sold it, but I shot so many grouse with it, on the ground and on the wing. I used 3" #5 lead shot, which is likely over kill. I mostly shoot 12g with IC choke now, a Versamax with a sling 
is my gun of choice.
is my gun of choice.Steel shot? What next, a migratory bird licence!
If you refer to the post I was commenting on, the guy was talking about using #4 shot in case he encountered some ducks.
I've had good close up shots at ducks when upland hunting, about one every 10 years I guess, but I passed on them because I just knew that I'd walk out to find a game warden waiting to ask for my migratory bird licence and proof that I'd used steel shot. But anyway the shots were close up enough that I'm confident the 7 1/2 or 8 lead shot I had would have been effective. But for sure I'd never shoot lead over water.
Another good reason to use a 12 or 20 gauge, many steel shot options and most have removable chokes. I bought four boxes of steel upland loads a few years back, I have shot quite a few grouse with them and never had an issue.
