Trusting a 38 SandW revolver reamed to accept 38 special?

TravisJM

TravisJM

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So I had a beautiful 1912 production Smith and Wesson Military & Police in 38 special. Gorgeous gun. A man offered to buy it off me during the summer for about 6 times what I had gotten it for so I sold it to him and bought another one (great shape 1941 mfg'd 3 T's) Specifically asked the seller of gun #2 if it was a 38 S&W or a 38 Special as the ad only said "38" and was told "I shoot the same ammo I put through my .357 magnum through it". Okay, awesome. Stupid me assumes that means the gun was actually just 38 special and not something weird because if it wasn't you'd expect someone to say that...anyway. :HR:

Gun shows up and it's a 38 Smith & Wesson with the cylinder reamed out to hold 38 Special. I had never heard about this prior to my unwitting adventure into the ownership of one, apparently it was the fate of many many 38 S&W's after the war because of the increased popularity of 38 Special.

Been trying to do some research on them and the internet is full of wildly conflicting anecdotal advice. I listed the gun on here briefly before I gave up hope with my available timeline (none?). I'd rather have my butchered 38 S&W than no wheel gun at all but I was contacted by a gunsmith who basically said it was totally fine and not to worry about it, my cases will just take a bit of a beating. I've also read stories online of frames rupturing and shooters sustaining injuries though but "a buddy of mine said he saw..." stories online are worth what you pay for them sometimes.

Now, it's my understanding that modern 38 S&W ammo is normally loaded with .357's anyway so really it shouldn't matter much outside of some case.bulge....but would you guys trust it? Would you let your wife or friends shoot it? Should I just throw it in the back of the safe and forget I own it? 38 special fits perfectly fine with plenty of room and very very minimal rattle in the cylinder. Very frustrated because if I ever thought I'd be buying a gun that I was going to question whatsoever I wouldn't have ever bought it but I have what I have now I guess. Was this practice done on other service revolvers at the time? Are there a bunch of top break No. 2's floating around out there that can shoot 38 special?
 
About the only thing that will happen is that the .38Spec. cases may swell a bit when they fireform to the .38S&W portion of the chamber.
I cannot imagine how a frame would be ruptured.
I would not shoot +P .38Spec. ammunition.
 
Modern .38 S&W ammo ( if it can be found)are not loaded to .38 special or even close to .357 level.

The .38 S&W is a low pressure rounds and NO, I would not trust a gun reamed to accept .38 Special. This is unless you shoot only WC loaded with the same powder charge than the .38 S&W. At the best, shooting over pressure load in the .38 S&W will slowly destroy it, at the worse, it will break up on you, crack the cylinder or the like.

The guys are right for the case & bullet diameter, here some infos :

The .38 Smith & Wesson is even older than the .38 Special, with the former having been invented in 1877. While it never reached the sheer popularity of the Special, the Smith and Wesson take on a .38 round found important military contracts, especially among the British and their then imperial holdings. While it has fallen out of favor since, the .38 Smith and Wesson was in wide military use in both world wars, as well as the Korean war.

In terms of specifications, the .38 Smith and Wesson shoots a bullet of around 175 grains at somewhere around 700 ft/second, depending on the particular loading. Compared to the Special, the Smith and Wesson is a heavier, slower-moving round that functions on lower pressure. It’s for that reason that they’re not interchangeable.

Bullet diameter .361 in (9.2 mm)
Neck diameter .3855 in (9.79 mm)
Base diameter .3865 in (9.82 mm)
Rim diameter .440 in (11.2 mm)
Rim thickness .055 in (1.4 mm)
Case length .775 in (19.7 mm)
Overall length 1.240 in (31.5 mm)
Primer type Small pistol
Maximum pressure 14,500 psi (100 MPa)
 
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TravisJM said:
So I had a beautiful 1912 production Smith and Wesson Military & Police in 38 special. Gorgeous gun. A man offered to buy it off me during the summer for about 6 times what I had gotten it for so I sold it to him and bought another one (great shape 1941 mfg'd 3 T's) Specifically asked the seller of gun #2 if it was a 38 S&W or a 38 Special as the ad only said "38" and was told "I shoot the same ammo I put through my .357 magnum through it". Okay, awesome. Stupid me assumes that means the gun was actually just 38 special and not something weird because if it wasn't you'd expect someone to say that...anyway. :HR:

Gun shows up and it's a 38 Smith & Wesson with the cylinder reamed out to hold 38 Special. I had never heard about this prior to my unwitting adventure into the ownership of one, apparently it was the fate of many many 38 S&W's after the war because of the increased popularity of 38 Special.

Been trying to do some research on them and the internet is full of wildly conflicting anecdotal advice. I listed the gun on here briefly before I gave up hope with my available timeline (none?). I'd rather have my butchered 38 S&W than no wheel gun at all but I was contacted by a gunsmith who basically said it was totally fine and not to worry about it, my cases will just take a bit of a beating. I've also read stories online of frames rupturing and shooters sustaining injuries though but "a buddy of mine said he saw..." stories online are worth what you pay for them sometimes.

Now, it's my understanding that modern 38 S&W ammo is normally loaded with .357's anyway so really it shouldn't matter much outside of some case.bulge....but would you guys trust it? Would you let your wife or friends shoot it? Should I just throw it in the back of the safe and forget I own it? 38 special fits perfectly fine with plenty of room and very very minimal rattle in the cylinder. Very frustrated because if I ever thought I'd be buying a gun that I was going to question whatsoever I wouldn't have ever bought it but I have what I have now I guess. Was this practice done on other service revolvers at the time? Are there a bunch of top break No. 2's floating around out there that can shoot 38 special?
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I did some reading when researching the old Smith and wesson M&Ps. Do your own research but this is what I recall: the Americans didn't use the 38 s&w in 1941 but produced a number of handguns for the British military who were having trouble making enough of their Enfield No 2s, which use a .361 200 gn bullet out of a .38 s&w casing. These are the .380 revolver or 38/200 loads.

Smith and Wesson made S&W Victory models and also military and police models during prewar and early war using their .38 spl frames/cylinders. In theory, they are every bit as robust as a .38 spl m&p, as they are the same-material gun bored to a different original calibre.

An Enfield no. 2 didn't start out as a .38 spl downloaded to a 38 s&w, unlike the s&w m&p.

But, I'm not an NDT technician. Do your own research.
 
I’ve read that a zillion of these were done by gunsmiths, but the quality of the work will vary. I wouldn’t be surprised if a few of the poorer conversions blew up, but then again there’s a bunch of idiots out there who likely loaded them with god knows what.

I’m guessing the conversion was likely done decades ago and it’s likely seen factory ammunition and hasn’t gone boom, so that’s a good sign. If you handload then start with some mild loads and leave the hot stuff for a more modern revolver.

These revolvers are made of the same stuff and machined on the same equipment that the 38 Special version were created with and on, the only difference is that the cylinders and bore are a few thou over. The two that I’ve slugged had 358’ish bores as well so it should shoot well enough, my guess is S&W made all the 38 cal bores on the same equipment to save costs and time.
 
TravisJM said:
So I had a beautiful 1912 production Smith and Wesson Military & Police in 38 special. Gorgeous gun. A man offered to buy it off me during the summer for about 6 times what I had gotten it for so I sold it to him and bought another one (great shape 1941 mfg'd 3 T's) Specifically asked the seller of gun #2 if it was a 38 S&W or a 38 Special as the ad only said "38" and was told "I shoot the same ammo I put through my .357 magnum through it". Okay, awesome. Stupid me assumes that means the gun was actually just 38 special and not something weird because if it wasn't you'd expect someone to say that...anyway. :HR:

Gun shows up and it's a 38 Smith & Wesson with the cylinder reamed out to hold 38 Special. I had never heard about this prior to my unwitting adventure into the ownership of one, apparently it was the fate of many many 38 S&W's after the war because of the increased popularity of 38 Special.

Been trying to do some research on them and the internet is full of wildly conflicting anecdotal advice. I listed the gun on here briefly before I gave up hope with my available timeline (none?). I'd rather have my butchered 38 S&W than no wheel gun at all but I was contacted by a gunsmith who basically said it was totally fine and not to worry about it, my cases will just take a bit of a beating. I've also read stories online of frames rupturing and shooters sustaining injuries though but "a buddy of mine said he saw..." stories online are worth what you pay for them sometimes.

Now, it's my understanding that modern 38 S&W ammo is normally loaded with .357's anyway so really it shouldn't matter much outside of some case.bulge....but would you guys trust it? Would you let your wife or friends shoot it? Should I just throw it in the back of the safe and forget I own it? 38 special fits perfectly fine with plenty of room and very very minimal rattle in the cylinder. Very frustrated because if I ever thought I'd be buying a gun that I was going to question whatsoever I wouldn't have ever bought it but I have what I have now I guess. Was this practice done on other service revolvers at the time? Are there a bunch of top break No. 2's floating around out there that can shoot 38 special?
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I've owned similar revolvers in the past. Is it simply bored out so a 38 Special length cartridge can fit the chambers, OR, is it actually bored out and sleeved? If it's bored out/sleeved, only a 38 Special cartridge will fit.
 
Have you slugged the bore? Some sources are claiming that the S&W is using a .359 bullet and not a .361.

And why not reload? Would do that anyways when I look at the ammo prices, plus you do not know if manufactured ammo is not too hot anyways - which I feel it often is.
 
tiriaq said:
About the only thing that will happen is that the .38Spec. cases may swell a bit when they fireform to the .38S&W portion of the chamber.
I cannot imagine how a frame would be ruptured.
I would not shoot +P .38Spec. ammunition.
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This caught my eye. The 38 S&W is slightly larger in diameter but notably shorter in comparison to the 38spl right? So I guess that mean after firing you'd end up with a case with a funny looking step in the middle of the case? I feel like that would greatly hinder the ability to reload the cases?


BattleRife said:
Keep your eyes open for a cylinder from a Model 10, or derivative (14, 15, 64, etc.). In the meantime, shoot it.
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How much work would it be to make one of those fit? Should it just drop in or would there be some work involved? I just bought a S&W 1905 in 38S&W, and the idea of being able to obtain a 38Spl cylinder is very intriguing.
 
I've never done it, but I imagine it as a straight swap if the guns are of similar vintage.

On the other hand, if you have a pre-WWI hand ejector and try to fit a 70's vintage model 10 cylinder, I wouldn't be surprised if it took some doing.
 
fritzhanzel said:
Have you slugged the bore? Some sources are claiming that the S&W is using a .359 bullet and not a .361.

And why not reload? Would do that anyways when I look at the ammo prices, plus you do not know if manufactured ammo is not too hot anyways - which I feel it often is.
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Most of those barrels measured out at .358in, other than the normal variances that happen during mass production manufacturing due to tolerances being slacker.

I haven't tried to swap out a Model 10 cylinder into a Victory Model but I have swapped out surplus US issue 38spcl cylinders, ordered from Gun Parts or Numerich as well as a few other sources back in the day.

One thing I've noticed, there certainly isn't any difficulty in chambering 38S&W ammo into 38 spl cylinders that I've done it with.

The same can be said for the original surplus 38/200 ammo intended for those Victory model revolvers, other than couple of Colt revolvers chambered for the 38 special.

Others may have had different experiences than mine, but I've used up thousands of rounds of the surplus 38/200 surplus ammo from back in the day. Everything from 200 grain lead bullets with hollow bases to the later full metal jacket offerings and most of it was shot through 38 spcl revolvers of one model or another.
 
There is plenty of standard pressure .38spl out there running over 7,000psi higher than the SW max (CIP .38spl=21,756 psi, SW=14,500). Coupled with the usual reports of split and bulged cases using factory loaded .38spl isn't something I would do much if at all. I have been through a few blow ups and none were fun.
 
I would trust it, after testing it. Assuming we’re talking about a SW model that also comes in 38 special.
But for shooting a lot I would reload.
 
Great North Guns said:
I would trust it, after testing it. Assuming we’re talking about a SW model that also comes in 38 special.
But for shooting a lot I would reload.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I'm talking about. From what I can see the 1905s were originally 38spl guns, and they simply chambered them in the weaker 38s&w for the British.

I was just thinking about how much easier/cheaper it would be to find 38spl components. Factory s&w ammo is pretty darn expensive for the limited options I've found available right now, and I haven't found s&w cases or dies (although I haven't started looking hard either) in stock anywhere. Bullets are easy at least - Jet Bullets makes .362cal 200gr.
 
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