Not a Glock fan boy. In fact I prefer my P320. I just want to point out that any one can be taught to shoot any pistol well. Those that can't ofter make excuses.
HiPower to be Replaced by Sig 320
- Thread starter Ganderite
- Start date
Not a Glock fan boy. In fact I prefer my P320. I just want to point out that any one can be taught to shoot any pistol well. Those that can't ofter make excuses.
lets keep this discussion going ya?
first failure while firing this morning, this is after approximately 340 rounds, maybe 70-80 rounds on this particular magazine. all 115 gr CCI FMJ
this was the last round in the mag, so I'm leaning towards the magazine as the primary contributor to this particular FTF
given my previous post, which was actually a different magazine, my working sample size is currently 1 magazine failure per 200 rounds
I notice that these magazines load quite easily - the spring is kinda soft ... could definitely be a factor
I will continue to shoot and report any further findings if anyone is interested, for now, I remain still suspect of these overpriced xfive/legion type magazines.
pistol definitely runs though, had some great accuracy today, shooting at the 10 yard line. see below, any "fliers" are due to poor grip or sight alignment.
first failure while firing this morning, this is after approximately 340 rounds, maybe 70-80 rounds on this particular magazine. all 115 gr CCI FMJ
this was the last round in the mag, so I'm leaning towards the magazine as the primary contributor to this particular FTF
given my previous post, which was actually a different magazine, my working sample size is currently 1 magazine failure per 200 rounds
I notice that these magazines load quite easily - the spring is kinda soft ... could definitely be a factor
I will continue to shoot and report any further findings if anyone is interested, for now, I remain still suspect of these overpriced xfive/legion type magazines.
pistol definitely runs though, had some great accuracy today, shooting at the 10 yard line. see below, any "fliers" are due to poor grip or sight alignment.
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Frankly, I am surprised anyone produced a pistol after 1985.
The perfect pistol, as it has been described by all who encounter the Glock, is now on it's 5th addition of perfection having suffered in no particular order, kbooms due to unsupported brass Gen 1 - Gen1/2 Gen 3, droopy frames when lights were attached to them Gen 2 I believe, to cracking frames Gen's 4 from under heavy use and now apparently pins backing out of Gen5's. I guess perfection is in the eyes of the beholder.
In the meantime, back at the Walther ranch we have 5.6lb triggers with crisp breaks being produced, the M&P line with ergos to die for with little need for "more training" to adopt to an uncomfortable, awkward grip angle that does tighten the tendon of the thumb. The tightening has the mystical effect of eliminating limp wristing as described above.
Since 1985 we should note the Springfield XD line was one of the first truly SA striker fired pistols with a fully reset striker. later incorporated in the Walther line. Too, we should not forget Walther's incorporation of Mr. Luger's stepped chamber concept that allows for some amazing accuracy in a service pistol.
So why has the Glock sold to so many LEO and military outfits???? The answer is pricing, marketing and to a "death do us part" fan base. Unfortunately, after a while the song gets old. Virtually all striker fired pistols on the market today are reliable. All have outliers with issues. All cost about the same on the retail market. All have their loyal fan base but none as loyal as the Glock crowd. Unfortunately for the Glock, only one gun has the main contract with the US Armed Forces, the largest consumer of pistols on the planet and the one gun that will, in time dominate the US LEO market which also is the largest on the planet. Why the LEO market. 1. The 320 series got the US Armed Forces contract and 2. The US LEO Agencies major single source of recruits would have to be the US Armed Services....and what pistol will they have been trained to use by their former employer...SIG M17/18 aka SIG 320.
I love my DA/SA CZ's, shoot my M&P Pistols better playing IDPA and am amazed how easy the PPQ line is to shoot with the best trigger I have felt in a striker fired pistol...ever but the SIG 320 XFive pistol with a Wilson Combat grip module is one great pistol package and the present reigning Queen of the Holster crowd in my home. The latter has kept me away from my revolvers this year even in the face of my new M&P Compact.
I admit to being a bit of a pistol whore with no allegiance to any of those mentioned. I am sorry but I don't have time to train to be good on a Glock. The grip angle and the hump on the Glock aggravates the palm of my hand and for me comfort these days is everything. Go figure.
Take Care
Bob
ps FYI to keep this all-in context the New York Police Department is larger than the Canadian Army. 55,000 vs 42,000 according to Google.
The perfect pistol, as it has been described by all who encounter the Glock, is now on it's 5th addition of perfection having suffered in no particular order, kbooms due to unsupported brass Gen 1 - Gen1/2 Gen 3, droopy frames when lights were attached to them Gen 2 I believe, to cracking frames Gen's 4 from under heavy use and now apparently pins backing out of Gen5's. I guess perfection is in the eyes of the beholder.
In the meantime, back at the Walther ranch we have 5.6lb triggers with crisp breaks being produced, the M&P line with ergos to die for with little need for "more training" to adopt to an uncomfortable, awkward grip angle that does tighten the tendon of the thumb. The tightening has the mystical effect of eliminating limp wristing as described above.
Since 1985 we should note the Springfield XD line was one of the first truly SA striker fired pistols with a fully reset striker. later incorporated in the Walther line. Too, we should not forget Walther's incorporation of Mr. Luger's stepped chamber concept that allows for some amazing accuracy in a service pistol.
So why has the Glock sold to so many LEO and military outfits???? The answer is pricing, marketing and to a "death do us part" fan base. Unfortunately, after a while the song gets old. Virtually all striker fired pistols on the market today are reliable. All have outliers with issues. All cost about the same on the retail market. All have their loyal fan base but none as loyal as the Glock crowd. Unfortunately for the Glock, only one gun has the main contract with the US Armed Forces, the largest consumer of pistols on the planet and the one gun that will, in time dominate the US LEO market which also is the largest on the planet. Why the LEO market. 1. The 320 series got the US Armed Forces contract and 2. The US LEO Agencies major single source of recruits would have to be the US Armed Services....and what pistol will they have been trained to use by their former employer...SIG M17/18 aka SIG 320.
I love my DA/SA CZ's, shoot my M&P Pistols better playing IDPA and am amazed how easy the PPQ line is to shoot with the best trigger I have felt in a striker fired pistol...ever but the SIG 320 XFive pistol with a Wilson Combat grip module is one great pistol package and the present reigning Queen of the Holster crowd in my home. The latter has kept me away from my revolvers this year even in the face of my new M&P Compact.
I admit to being a bit of a pistol whore with no allegiance to any of those mentioned. I am sorry but I don't have time to train to be good on a Glock. The grip angle and the hump on the Glock aggravates the palm of my hand and for me comfort these days is everything. Go figure.
Take Care
Bob
ps FYI to keep this all-in context the New York Police Department is larger than the Canadian Army. 55,000 vs 42,000 according to Google.
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Shouldn’t by your logic the dominant leo handgun should have been the M9 since that’s what the us mil had before?
Very well stated Bob, I couldn't agree more. Many agencies turning away from the Glock, but many stay with it just because they already have holsters and parts bins full of compatible spares.
Funny we still hear the fables about the Glock grip angle being designed that way on purpose.....o...but...it....was....only for a different reason.
Mr. Gaston was not a shooter. When designing the gun he went out on his shop's floor to ask who was a shooter. Being a European country, many employees were shooters.
Only they were all ISU / ISSF Sport Pistol shooters (think Olympics). All ISU / ISSF sports are shot one handed with your body sideways. That's what they told him the perfect angle was. He ran with it and after going to production learned that modern 2 handed combat shooting techniques, with a squared off body were a bit better for the gun. TOO Late, Mr. Gaston had already gone to production! At some point later on the fable of "Grip angle, designed to lock your wrist, totally awesome recoil control" was created.
In retrospect nearly no other manufacturer copied the grip angle, heck Zev actually tried to make the ultimate custom Glock (man they are nice guns) and corrected the grip angle on their guns to be more natural pointing, like....Walther, S&W, HK, Beretta.....and so on and son on.....
Rich
Funny we still hear the fables about the Glock grip angle being designed that way on purpose.....o...but...it....was....only for a different reason.
Mr. Gaston was not a shooter. When designing the gun he went out on his shop's floor to ask who was a shooter. Being a European country, many employees were shooters.
Only they were all ISU / ISSF Sport Pistol shooters (think Olympics). All ISU / ISSF sports are shot one handed with your body sideways. That's what they told him the perfect angle was. He ran with it and after going to production learned that modern 2 handed combat shooting techniques, with a squared off body were a bit better for the gun. TOO Late, Mr. Gaston had already gone to production! At some point later on the fable of "Grip angle, designed to lock your wrist, totally awesome recoil control" was created.
In retrospect nearly no other manufacturer copied the grip angle, heck Zev actually tried to make the ultimate custom Glock (man they are nice guns) and corrected the grip angle on their guns to be more natural pointing, like....Walther, S&W, HK, Beretta.....and so on and son on.....
Rich
Exactly, beat me to it. The G variant, I believe, was an offshoot of that purchase. There were several others as I recall. The 92 was replaced by the M&P in the mid 20 teens apparently.
Take Care
Bob
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Best grip frame for the 320 right there sir. Nice choice. Not as heavy as the Tungsten TXG, but damn, I love my AXG grip frame.
320 trigger isn't terrible at all I like it (except for the reset occasionally). it is superior to a glock trigger, for sure.. and while youd think a SA trigger is nicer, I was pleasantly surprised by the groups I was shooting cold ^
the take up is not too scrunchy or heavy , id say it breaks clean.
I have no issues with the bore axis, personally, I like it, I find it lends itself to a more natural firing position for the type of sight picture these use which is preferable anyways imo. the grip and balance are superior to the 226, which is my current fave.
I was averse to the 226 for years for that bore axis reason until I bought one and trained on it and now I'm obsessed lol.
hammer vs striker is a whole other discussion, I will say the 320 is a decent piece so far though I was much more confident in the 226 I need to continue testing.
I do like the modularity of the fire control unit, pretty cool to be able to swap frames and such with ease... I really want to get the magazine funnel and the walnut grips but no dealers have responded to me yet and nobody has stock which sux if anyone knows where I can source or find them please let me know
lolz, Good one Rich! I seem to recall something about the P-38 and previous Lugers were looked at, but yeah, in the end these tales are all probably bullsh!t.
In any event I do get a kick out of the grip angle argument - it really isn't a discussion that involves Glocks without discussing some shooter's complete inability to deal with it (I guess Bob get's a pass because it strains his body parts).
I went with the funnel from Armory Craft. It’s actually cheaper than the OEM Sig piece, but is definitely a higher quality part based on a comparison to the OEM funnel on my TXG grip. They ship to Canada with no issues.
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No it doesn't strain them just irritates the skin on the bottom of my palm is all. I understand LEO's whose departments use the Glock having to get used to the gun but for the rest of us we do have choices.
The Glock is a 1980's design that has had five upgrades. The latest really represents a new pistol that happens to use the same mags as previous models. The slide has been re-engineered with metal added to end the frontal cracking of the slide (Gen 4), the rear too has had metal added to prevent cracking in the rear of the Gen 4. These changes required changes in the trigger group and frame neither of which, like the slide are not interchangeable with the previous four attempts. What is common are the polymer sights, the mags albeit with minor changes to the followers. The grip angle remains the same, presumably to ensure a tight tendon and to allow the former mags to function.
There is no doubt the Glock has been a very successful iconic pistol. But it really has no redeeming features that set it apart from any other striker fired design other than it retains the ergonomics of a brick. It lost the US contract because it was not a modular design, a key requirement to the tender. Other very good pistols were discarded early on in the process including the American S&W M&P due to it's lack of modularity. What I don't get is why the Glock fan base get all butt hurt every time their favourite blaster fails to gain a large contract. Glock will still win over contracts it just missed out on the major prize. Don't be surprised if they see further contracts lost to the 320. They will also win contracts as well so relax guys your kids will still have a warm supper tomorrow.
Take Care
Bob
The Glock is a 1980's design that has had five upgrades. The latest really represents a new pistol that happens to use the same mags as previous models. The slide has been re-engineered with metal added to end the frontal cracking of the slide (Gen 4), the rear too has had metal added to prevent cracking in the rear of the Gen 4. These changes required changes in the trigger group and frame neither of which, like the slide are not interchangeable with the previous four attempts. What is common are the polymer sights, the mags albeit with minor changes to the followers. The grip angle remains the same, presumably to ensure a tight tendon and to allow the former mags to function.
There is no doubt the Glock has been a very successful iconic pistol. But it really has no redeeming features that set it apart from any other striker fired design other than it retains the ergonomics of a brick. It lost the US contract because it was not a modular design, a key requirement to the tender. Other very good pistols were discarded early on in the process including the American S&W M&P due to it's lack of modularity. What I don't get is why the Glock fan base get all butt hurt every time their favourite blaster fails to gain a large contract. Glock will still win over contracts it just missed out on the major prize. Don't be surprised if they see further contracts lost to the 320. They will also win contracts as well so relax guys your kids will still have a warm supper tomorrow.
Take Care
Bob
Glock fan boys chime in but not nearly as much as the Glock haters. Canuck 44, can you show us on the doll where Glock touched you? (In jest).
I have spent many, many rounds through a Glock, on course, and really, the only thing I find frustrating about it is the 'Glock Knuckle'. This is a phenomenon I have not experienced on any other hand gun, ever. A proficient pistol shooter should be able to pick up ANY handgun and within less than 100rds be able to identify where they need to make their adjustments.
I have spent many, many rounds through a Glock, on course, and really, the only thing I find frustrating about it is the 'Glock Knuckle'. This is a phenomenon I have not experienced on any other hand gun, ever. A proficient pistol shooter should be able to pick up ANY handgun and within less than 100rds be able to identify where they need to make their adjustments.
pirate604 I don't see where anyone here hates the Glock. As I have said above it is an iconic pistol but it is not anything special. What I see here are some loyal fans who seem to feel they have to provide reasons why their Glock should have won every contract their chosen pistol lost. Their reaction is predictable as tomorrow's sunrise.
The striker fired pistol market is crowded with accurate, reliable pistols all operating pretty much the same way. Pick one and shoot the he'll out of it just like the US, CDN, Denmark and Australian Armed Forces did and will do.
Take Care
Bob
The striker fired pistol market is crowded with accurate, reliable pistols all operating pretty much the same way. Pick one and shoot the he'll out of it just like the US, CDN, Denmark and Australian Armed Forces did and will do.
Take Care
Bob
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I went with the funnel from Armory Craft. It’s actually cheaper than the OEM Sig piece, but is definitely a higher quality part based on a comparison to the OEM funnel on my TXG grip. They ship to Canada with no issues.
Wicked I got a couple and some grips there hopefully shows up sooner than later. Thanks for the tip. Shot another 200 rounds today believe it or not I had another FTF last round in a mag. So I'm 3 for 3 on the 0.5% failure every 200 rounds
I've had 3 P320's including one "franken gun" assembled with parts. Thousands of rounds fired and never a malfunction, including reloads and various ammo.
You're getting this happening on the last round. You have a consistent problem of some sort, maybe the mag. Once and a while there are problem mags, with any system.
Rich
You're getting this happening on the last round. You have a consistent problem of some sort, maybe the mag. Once and a while there are problem mags, with any system.
Rich
Yeah, I also assume its the mag(s) as myself and others have mentioned, it's just disappointing. I did mark them. For the cost, 80-100$, they should be better, sure, #### happens and there could be "friday afternoon" products so to speak but, I haven't had such issues with a multitude of other magazines - and these are very new, that's why I keep mentioning it. I'm certainly not saying this is absolutely the case, and others have mentioned good experiences, bottom line is, in my opinion, our commercially available xfive/legion type mags for the 320, are to me, not justifiable in cost. Not even close. They should honestly be half the cost they are. Not soap boxing against sig, but nor am I a die hard fan boy. The pistol itself is quite the shooter so far. YMMV
