Hunters who do not practice their marksmanship

arcticcathonda said:
No, I've stayed clear of wood for the reasons you state in a hunting rifle. We all have our personal feelings to zeroing a rifle, some chose check zero beginning of every season, some after a bad fall or bump, others after they miss a shot! I think the point I took a stand against more than anything was the claim that "Shooting is a perishable skill and isn’t being a competent shooter part of being an ethical hunter?" I'd argue shooting as a skill isn't as perishable as maybe some think. Or at least my experience has shown otherwise. Also that because I don't practice doesn't mean I'm a competent shooter. But then again, I don't treat shooting animals like shooting steel plates or targets. I don't put myself in a position to have to take a shot at an animal that I've needed to practice. The only shots I take are the "slam dunks". That means alot of animals walk away, but what I lack in practice I make up for in self restraint and self awareness.
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I believe we are both on the same page here.:cheers:
 
While I agree in principle with this thread, I disagree that shooting is a perishable skill (at least to the point it matters to hunters).

Ive known many old timers who dont shoot often any longer that can pick up a shotgun and knock clays out of the sky without issue. They also dont miss deer or moose when given the opportunity to shoot. The skills they honed 30, 40, 50 years ago are still there. The problem of course is those that were not taught how to shoot originally. That I think is the biggest problem. Also not admitting to a flinch. I know a few guys who flinch from their 3006 and they have for decades as they were never taught how to shoot it properly and had they admitted to a flinch in the days of yonder they'd be made fun of. They dont shoot in the offseason, have mags loaded with bullets of various weights, brands etc, and just plain dont understand shooting or their own firearm.

Myself, I zero all my rifles in the month before I will hunt with them. I dont shoot hundreds of rounds through each of them a year, but I shoot enough to know the bullet is going where I want it to. I dont flinch, I know that, and am comfortable with my skills. Ive never not killed a big game animal Ive pulled the trigger on.

The one thing I think every hunter should do more of is shoot rimfire far more often then they do. Any shooting at all is good, 22lr is cheap and plentiful and easy to shoot. I always shoot a lot of it when I get range time.
 
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I guess it depends on the situation and the type of hunting. My offhand shooting gets worse if I haven’t practiced in a long time. As does my kneeling and sitting unsupported. Off a rest or shooting stick I could probably take a couple years off and shoot just as well.
 
Newbie here, and full disclosure, I only read the first three pages of this thread.

But my experience so far, as a new shooter, is that they don't make it easy.

We all know all the incredible hoops you have to go through to just get your pal to begin with. It takes a lot of time and a lot of steps. I started in april and finally got my pal in september.

Then buying a gun took more hoop jumping. You spend all the time researching it, trying them out, etc, and then when you're finally ready to buy -surprise! - they have to check in with the mounties to verify your pal, and oh, look, there's another delay because it's saturday and the mounties don't work weekends.

The point is, the entire system in canada is set up to be slow, painstaking, frustrating and costly.

I think then gun-owners and what not subconsciously adopt that mindset.

Even just joining and posting on this forum was a bit nuts. You gotta apply, then get verified, but then even that doesn't get you in the door - for the first week I could write a post and then not have it appear, because as a newbie I was automatically placed in moderation and needed a mod to approve every post just to make sure I wasn't a robot. Now it appears that I can post normally, but not all parts of the forum are open to me - if I want to post in the equipment exchange, there's yet more hoops to jump through! It's almost like the forum is run by the same mounties in charge of the PAL program...

Are you seeing the trend?

It applies to gun ranges too, it seems.

I'd love to go practice my shooting. But I can't find the local crown land gravel pit. I've found references to it here on this forum - heck, i've even found pictures of it here! - but no one will tell me where it is. I've asked around everywhere, but no one is talking. It's like they're all guarding the secret location of their favourite fishing hole.

So that leaves ranges. There's one near me. I'd like to join it, eventually i'm sure I will, but their own website says the process with all it's hoops will take several months!

First I have to fill out the application and submit it along with a couple hundred bucks in fees. Then they review my application and, if they don't find any problems, send it off to some provincial organisation for approval. A couple weeks later if the provincial organisation has approved it, then the local club will put my application on the agenda for their next meeting. Then i'll wait up to two weeks for their next meeting, at which point they'll all vote on my application. Assuming I get approved then, technically i'll be a club member at that point, but I still couldn't go and just shoot. Rather, I have to schedule not one, not two, not three, but freaking four visits to be supervised by their range officer to make sure i'm good to go. Those have to be scheduled on his schedule, of course. After all that, then finally i'd be able to just go to the range and practice! Again, all those hoops, delays, and steps - it's almost like the mounties are running it, or it's all part of the trudeau master plan to discourage people from taking up shooting.

I'm not trying to make excuses. I'm just saying that I bet there's lots of guys like me who would love to practice more, but the system just makes it too hard.
 
Callee,

If you are talking about the transfer number from rcmp, in my experience that works 24/7. My last firearm purchase occurred just before midnight on Saturday. Once the info was sent to rcmp, both seller and buyer received emails with the transfer number in less than 5 minutes. So, Im not sure what your problem was/is when purchasing guns.

Verifying user’s account is also hardly jumping thru hoops. There are way too many bogus accounts that make mess, so making sure you are legit is ok in my books.

Joining a range is voluntary on the person. Joining internet forum such as CGN also is voluntary. You dont like the regulations of range, forum etc. you dont have to join…that simple.

Sounds like you are frustrated for some reason and are venting and exaggerating a little bit.

Is there too much bureaucracy in government? Sure, but tbh, the examples you gave are not the best.

As a new pal holder, might be good to listen and learn about something new to you. It will be more productive for you than being a hot head with lack of knowledge.

Not hating or any5hing, just trying to shed some light as a person that may have more experience in ths matter.

We all were cherries at one point :)
 
valczer said:
Callee,

If you are talking about the transfer number from rcmp, in my experience that works 24/7. My last firearm purchase occurred just before midnight on Saturday. Once the info was sent to rcmp, both seller and buyer received emails with the transfer number in less than 5 minutes. So, Im not sure what your problem was/is when purchasing guns.

Verifying user’s account is also hardly jumping thru hoops. There are way too many bogus accounts that make mess, so making sure you are legit is ok in my books.

Joining a range is voluntary on the person. Joining internet forum such as CGN also is voluntary. You dont like the regulations of range, forum etc. you dont have to join…that simple.

Sounds like you are frustrated for some reason and are venting and exaggerating a little bit.

Is there too much bureaucracy in government? Sure, but tbh, the examples you gave are not the best.

As a new pal holder, might be good to listen and learn about something new to you. It will be more productive for you than being a hot head with lack of knowledge.

Not hating or any5hing, just trying to shed some light as a person that may have more experience in ths matter.

We all were cherries at one point :)
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I'm a newbie to this, for sure. That doesn't mean I don't have some knowledge though. I have knowledge of what i've experienced.

The rcmp transfer number did not work 24/7, it simply did not.

The clerk said that it usually worked right away, but that they had had quite a few cases where there was a delay of several hours. We browsed the store for half an hour hoping it would come through. It did not.
Fortunately we had some other errands to do in the city, and when we checked back in 3 hours later before leaving the city, the numbwr had finally come back through by then. It was the clerk who told me the issue was that the rcmp has fewer staff working on weekends.

So i'm not some hot head spouting off things I don't know. I am telling you the actual things I experienced.

In my experience, everyone has areas where they need to learn, and areas where other people can learn from them. Learning from others should usually be a two way street.

Case in point, i'm not entirely lacking in knoweldge of how forums work or what's involved in vetting new members. I've been on the admin team of a large canadian forum for over a decade. Granted, our membership is only around 30k, which is much smaller than this one. But that still means i've got a little bit of relevant experience from which I can form an opinion about the process here.

My opinion was that it's excessive. Putting all new members automatically into the moderation que must make a huge work load for what I assume are volunteer moderators. Based on over a decade's work with volunteer moderators, my opinion is that that's too much to ask of them, and not worth the bennefit. My suspicion is it would be less work just to identify and delete the spam bots after they post. But I could be wrong. I'm not saying I know everything. I'm just saying that I know some things, and you might find some of the things I think worth considering. Learning is a two way street, no?
 
Callee said:
I'm a newbie to this, for sure. That doesn't mean I don't have some knowledge though. I have knowledge of what i've experienced.

The rcmp transfer number did not work 24/7, it simply did not.

The clerk said that it usually worked right away, but that they had had quite a few cases where there was a delay of several hours. We browsed the store for half an hour hoping it would come through. It did not.
Fortunately we had some other errands to do in the city, and when we checked back in 3 hours later before leaving the city, the numbwr had finally come back through by then. It was the clerk who told me the issue was that the rcmp has fewer staff working on weekends.

So i'm not some hot head spouting off things I don't know. I am telling you the actual things I experienced.

In my experience, everyone has areas where they need to learn, and areas where other people can learn from them. Learning from others should usually be a two way street.

Case in point, i'm not entirely lacking in knoweldge of how forums work or what's involved in vetting new members. I've been on the admin team of a large canadian forum for over a decade. Granted, our membership is only around 30k, which is much smaller than this one. But that still means i've got a little bit of relevant experience from which I can form an opinion about the process here.

My opinion was that it's excessive. Putting all new members automatically into the moderation que must make a huge work load for what I assume are volunteer moderators. Based on over a decade's work with volunteer moderators, my opinion is that that's too much to ask of them, and not worth the bennefit. My suspicion is it would be less work just to identify and delete the spam bots after they post. But I could be wrong. I'm not saying I know everything. I'm just saying that I know some things, and you might find some of the things I think worth considering. Learning is a two way street, no?
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Of course learning is a two way street.

The rcmp transfer number is obtained automatically, there is no live person “doing” it and that is why you an get it 24/7 unless there is a hick up somewhere in the way. I, had a person tell me my pal is no good…because he put my dob wrong. I shoed him the problem and he did it again lol same mistake lol finally he did it right. Something that usually takes a few minutes, took us over an hour. Maybe the store’s connection was bad, maybe something else…what Im trying to say, the transfer number aint that big of a deal as far as physical input. I would worry more about it being a hidden gun registry of some sort.

As far as rules of forums…hmmm, I suspect the cgn admins do what they do, not because they need to but because they want to.

Anyways, dont get discouraged with some bs on the way, that too shall pass. It is part of paying ones dues at the beginning.

Look, we live in a world of constant invigilation, info gathering, and such. I do not know if there is a way around it…if we keep putting same politicians in charge of us.
 
Callee said:
... But I can't find the local crown land gravel pit. I've found references to it here on this forum - heck, i've even found pictures of it here! - but no one will tell me where it is. I've asked around everywhere, but no one is talking. It's like they're all guarding the secret location of their favourite fishing hole.

So that leaves ranges. There's one near me. I'd like to join it, eventually i'm sure I will, but their own website says the process with all it's hoops will take several months...
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Come back to this post in 3 or 4 years....you'll understand. I agree, it sure isn't easy when starting out. But it's worth it and some day the fact that people don't "advertise" their public shooting spot or that some clubs like to get to know prospective members before handing them the keys will make sense to you.
 
Runningfool said:
Come back to this post in 3 or 4 years....you'll understand. I agree, it sure isn't easy when starting out. But it's worth it and some day the fact that people don't "advertise" their public shooting spot or that some clubs like to get to know prospective members before handing them the keys will make sense to you.
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I hear you, I do. And I'm sure you're right.

But I think something else is right too:

The harder it is to start out, the fewer people will bother starting.

And the fewer people who start shooting means the fewer people who can be counted among the ranks of gun owners.

That means gun owners, as a whole, will become a smaller and smaller voting block, which means the politicians will ignore them more and more.

It also means that the proportion of canada that has never shot a gun and doesn't understand guns will get larger and larger.

That means that there will be more and more people who just don't understand why proposed gun control laws don't really make sense. I've met a lot of people who support the recent liberal gun laws. None of those people have ever shot a gun themselves.

I think that most people who support the recent gun control laws do so from a position of ignorance about guns. Education and experience is the anecdote for that. If all those people could be convinced to give shooting a try and learn about guns themselves, I believe most of them would change their opinion.

I know that's what happened to me.

I grew up knowing nothing about guns or shooting. I only knew what I saw in the movies. I assumed our gun control laws made sense. I still remember teasing a gun-owning buddy of mine: I asked him how many guns he owned, and je said "19" , and I laughed and told him there was no way he needed that many guns, because after all he only had two hands! I really thought I was making a good point.

But then I went shooting myself - a friend took me. Then I took the gun course, then I started reading up on it. And right now I probably know only the smallest fraction of what there is to know, but already I know enough to know that back then I just didn't understand. Already I know enough to see how the new legislation makes no sense at all.

Anyway, all i'm saying is, if we keep making it so hard for people to start out, then it's only a matter of time till we're extinct.
 
Callee said:
I hear you, I do. And I'm sure you're right.

But I think something else is right too:

The harder it is to start out, the fewer people will bother starting.

And the fewer people who start shooting means the fewer people who can be counted among the ranks of gun owners.

That means gun owners, as a whole, will become a smaller and smaller voting block, which means the politicians will ignore them more and more.

It also means that the proportion of canada that has never shot a gun and doesn't understand guns will get larger and larger.

That means that there will be more and more people who just don't understand why proposed gun control laws don't really make sense. I've met a lot of people who support the recent liberal gun laws. None of those people have ever shot a gun themselves.

I think that most people who support the recent gun control laws do so from a position of ignorance about guns. Education and experience is the anecdote for that. If all those people could be convinced to give shooting a try and learn about guns themselves, I believe most of them would change their opinion.

I know that's what happened to me.

I grew up knowing nothing about guns or shooting. I only knew what I saw in the movies. I assumed our gun control laws made sense. I still remember teasing a gun-owning buddy of mine: I asked him how many guns he owned, and je said "19" , and I laughed and told him there was no way he needed that many guns, because after all he only had two hands! I really thought I was making a good point.

But then I went shooting myself - a friend took me. Then I took the gun course, then I started reading up on it. And right now I probably know only the smallest fraction of what there is to know, but already I know enough to know that back then I just didn't understand. Already I know enough to see how the new legislation makes no sense at all.

Anyway, all i'm saying is, if we keep making it so hard for people to start out, then it's only a matter of time till we're extinct.
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That is actually a part of their plan. - dan
 
Callee said:
I hear you, I do. And I'm sure you're right.

But I think something else is right too:

The harder it is to start out, the fewer people will bother starting.

And the fewer people who start shooting means the fewer people who can be counted among the ranks of gun owners.

That means gun owners, as a whole, will become a smaller and smaller voting block, which means the politicians will ignore them more and more.

It also means that the proportion of canada that has never shot a gun and doesn't understand guns will get larger and larger.

That means that there will be more and more people who just don't understand why proposed gun control laws don't really make sense. I've met a lot of people who support the recent liberal gun laws. None of those people have ever shot a gun themselves.

I think that most people who support the recent gun control laws do so from a position of ignorance about guns. Education and experience is the anecdote for that. If all those people could be convinced to give shooting a try and learn about guns themselves, I believe most of them would change their opinion.

I know that's what happened to me.

I grew up knowing nothing about guns or shooting. I only knew what I saw in the movies. I assumed our gun control laws made sense. I still remember teasing a gun-owning buddy of mine: I asked him how many guns he owned, and je said "19" , and I laughed and told him there was no way he needed that many guns, because after all he only had two hands! I really thought I was making a good point.

But then I went shooting myself - a friend took me. Then I took the gun course, then I started reading up on it. And right now I probably know only the smallest fraction of what there is to know, but already I know enough to know that back then I just didn't understand. Already I know enough to see how the new legislation makes no sense at all.

Anyway, all i'm saying is, if we keep making it so hard for people to start out, then it's only a matter of time till we're extinct.
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Y'know, I have had a couple of my nieces, and friends of theirs, come on to our property and take part in harvesting deer here. Surprised the hells outta me! Mom and dad, in the one case, were hard line Liberal types. Daughter, was much more balanced, and also had an interest in free range, organic Protein! Two of those folks have gone and done both PAL and BC Hunter courses!

Best advice I have, is that if someone shows interest, cultivate it! Invite them out, even if it's just a trail walk looking out for grouse or the like.

Take them to the range, or just out in the field, let them shoot, teach a little of the basics of gun safety.

Another of my nieces applied for, and was accepted into the Montreal City Police. When she applied, they asked her if she was familiar with firearms at all, to which, she rattled off a long list of the different guns she had had experience with, both handguns and rifles (Thanks Joe, Dave!). The officer dealing with her stated that the firearms section of the training was where they lost the most recruits, as many were scared spitless, of guns.

Sadly, she left the training over a matter of ethics, of which I am extremely proud of her! She had issues with an instructor who told the class that if they see any other officer doing wrong, they should keep their mouth shut, else when they called for backup, it might not come!
 
trevj said:
Sadly, she left the training over a matter of ethics, of which I am extremely proud of her! She had issues with an instructor who told the class that if they see any other officer doing wrong, they should keep their mouth shut, else when they called for backup, it might not come!
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That's messed up. Good for her.
 
Back to topic though, I came to similar point of view as the OP a few years back.

I don't see any good excuse not to practice marksmanship.
22 rifles make practice affordable. And small game hunting is fun and will get you out in the woods more than one week a year for the controlled deer hunt.

Incidently, a good way to check someones marksmanship ability is to go squirrel hunting with them.
 
My Lady Friend is all ready to 'Awaken the WIN card' and get some deer hunting done. So she was visiting with her boss ( He guides deer Hunters from the US when it is season), and he stated " You want Venison, no problem...80 % of my hunters don't want the meat anyhow" Headless, gutted, tagged, legal and all cleaned up...easy peasy.
Got the 1st one yesterday. Nice WT buck, awesome job of field dressing ( although I've got to show him the trick to 'Bob the hind legs at the knuckle').
Was stripping the Tenderloins out of it...my Gal was stating what her boss had said " The hunter was US SF, Active Navy SEAL etc "...my daughter and I looked at each other across the hanging deer and both said " Navy SEAL, eh? Well, he don't shoot so good...gut shot this one..."
Kinda funny and yet still relevant. Can snap a pic if desired...still hanging the garage. Definitely about 6-8" too far back...but the guide cleaned it up awesome...wouldn't know it had one in the guts when handling it... but the holes say otherwise.So what does one make of this story? Perishable skill or not? Can't imagine a 'Snake Eater' who has snuffed out numerous human lives getting Buck fever... or maybe...
 
I deer hunt with a guy that cannot kill a deer with a gun.

We used to hunt groundhogs and he had no problem wacking them out to 200 yards with the .222rem.

Hes got a couple deer with the bow over the last 10 ears.

Shotgun deer hunt comes along and he's missing everything in sight. Only thing I can think of is it's a recoil/flinch problem but he can smoke the target everytime! I've pretty much given up trying to figure it out. I hear him shooting during the deer hunt I don't get too excited to ask what he's got lol

The price of sabot slugs and availability making a lot of guys really conserve their ammo even more than they did before lol
 
DVXDUDE said:
I deer hunt with a guy that cannot kill a deer with a gun.

We used to hunt groundhogs and he had no problem wacking them out to 200 yards with the .222rem.

Hes got a couple deer with the bow over the last 10 ears.

Shotgun deer hunt comes along and he's missing everything in sight. Only thing I can think of is it's a recoil/flinch problem but he can smoke the target everytime! I've pretty much given up trying to figure it out. I hear him shooting during the deer hunt I don't get too excited to ask what he's got lol

The price of sabot slugs and availability making a lot of guys really conserve their ammo even more than they did before lol
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I cannot fathom having to use sabots. Thankfully I live in a place we use rifles. My wife does have a 20g she uses, but my father in law bought a lifetime supply of copper solids at $3.99/box about 20 years ago for it.

Given the range most guys shoot deer at with shotguns, I'd do everything I could to make the hybrid slugs (Challengers, Rackmasters etc) work well. My smoothbore shotgun does a cloverleaf at 50m with them and my wife's sabot 20g pushes them with acceptable accuracy to almost 100m. They're less then half the price of actual sabots.
 
The hunters in this country have NO IDEA how privileged we are!
I have several friends in Sweden and Finland, and the requirements to get a hunting license are extreme to say the least!
something like a 2 year apprenticeship with a licensed hunter in Sweden along with target shooting requirements that are not at all easy for ,most people I have seen here.
Finland requires a shooting test as well , with running targets ( same as Sweden).
All we have to do here is get a PAL( not hard at all), and a hunting license ( again, simple ).
I practice my shooting on a regular basis, and for hunting I do it from the same positions I would in the field, but I am not in the majority at our range, I know this for a fact.
Cat
 
iron cat said:
The hunters in this country have NO IDEA how privileged we are!
I have several friends in Sweden and Finland, and the requirements to get a hunting license are extreme to say the least!
something like a 2 year apprenticeship with a licensed hunter in Sweden along with target shooting requirements that are not at all easy for ,most people I have seen here.
Finland requires a shooting test as well , with running targets ( same as Sweden).
All we have to do here is get a PAL( not hard at all), and a hunting license ( again, simple ).
I practice my shooting on a regular basis, and for hunting I do it from the same positions I would in the field, but I am not in the majority at our range, I know this for a fact.
Cat
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This is what got me thinking about this whole topic. I saw someone shooting the Norwegian annual hunting qualification and it looked like it might actually take some skill to pass. Prone and sitting shots no easy benchrest shots or bipods. Also you have to qualify with each rifle you want to use and provide proof of at least 30 practice shots with each rifle before your test. Seems like a giant waste of money to run these qualifications but they love their regulations over there.
 
Tompullings said:
This is what got me thinking about this whole topic. I saw someone shooting the Norwegian annual hunting qualification and it looked like it might actually take some skill to pass. Prone and sitting shots no easy benchrest shots or bipods. Also you have to qualify with each rifle you want to use and provide proof of at least 30 practice shots with each rifle before your test. Seems like a giant waste of money to run these qualifications but they love their regulations over there.
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Socialists love to waste other people’s money, they also love to over regulate the society.
 
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