Yeah, I had to use a rubber mallet the first time too. I have since realized for the legendary reputation of not needing to clean it regularly, I've decided to not bother cleaning it. I'll be an old man in 10 years' time so may need to break out that mallet again then...but then again, if C21 goes though, it's not like we'll have much reason to need to clean it as it will just be sitting in the safe for a while...
Black rifle newb, SL-8 or WS-MCR/WX-MCR or something else?..
- Thread starter D.Pagenkopf
- Start date
Yeah, I had to use a rubber mallet the first time too. I have since realized for the legendary reputation of not needing to clean it regularly, I've decided to not bother cleaning it. I'll be an old man in 10 years' time so may need to break out that mallet again then...but then again, if C21 goes though, it's not like we'll have much reason to need to clean it as it will just be sitting in the safe for a while...
Oh for sure I will keep the thread updated.
I'm glad that you enjoyed that little story! I have a great set of mechanical skills... so those weekends were definitely filled with mechanical diagnosis and cursing and dirty hands...
Not that I'm afraid of them, I just would prefer to get the standard platform first- if I had the budget for sure I would see myself getting one.
See above comment^
HAH. Before the ban, the wife picked up a minty M9 and I got a reasonably priced shooter grade Luger. Everyone is happy.
Wicked!!! Gotta get them while you can!
Reading a lot of threads and people are still hung up on the BCL quality control issues. From what I've read and watched it sounds like this is behind them. I think the WS-MCR is off the list, unless I can't get the other options. The HK is impressive in terms of the quality of components and cleaning cycles. I like the look of the SL8, but I need to handle one of them again with the factory stock to see how it feels. Guy I was dealing with for an SL8 has been removed due to scammer activity... blah...
The Edmonton gun show was a bust. Saw a couple of WK180 gen 1s... no other 223/5.56 rifles. Couple LAR mags were picked up!!!
I've read almost all the forums on the firearms I've mentioned. The Templar seems pretty good. Not a lot of info on the Crusader 9 past promo video, lots more videos on Templar. Emailed Crusader Arms and they blew off the questions I had as a new semi-auto guy. I feel like I'm leaning to the direction of the Crusader 9/5.56 combo, dual calibre, can blast off 9mm cheaply and train with that and save 5.56 for other stuff I guess? But then I think that I really like the idea of a very accurate 5.56 that can reach out and swat Coyotes effectively. But then again I've always wanted the wild-catted 243-223 round for hunting (AB rules states calibre must be greater than .223 for big game...) and that option would be as simple as getting another 5.56 upper and having a barrel made up.
The SL8 just has that pesky problem of accessories being very expensive, mag well apater, hera arms lower bits, rails...
fritzhanzel
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
You don't have to do all of those mods, it's like a disease spreading, lol. The mags are not really a problem, the pmags for the G36 are around $50/piece and can easily be modified to fit. They come into the country in waves, so if not available today, there will be hundreds next month I am quite certain. Always been like this. It is the most accurate semi in 223 and you don't even have to clean it. Don't underestimate the last part, most of those others need religious cleaning after every outing for them to run properly.
That's true about the mods I guess being a disease spreading. I guess the one mod I am truly after is the mag well conversion- then I can run AR STANAG mags, which require no modification- I've come to the point in my life where I do want to try and just do things the simple way without modification. If we lived in a free-er country I could run 30-rounder G36 mags and be happy but that isn't the case.
If you place a premium on accuracy for 'yotes, etc, then the Templar may be your best choice alongside the SL8. My Templar prints sub-1.5 MOA 5-round groups using 69gr Federal Gold Medal Match, and sub-2MOA groups with PMC 55 gr X-TAC "bulk" ammo. I am convinced that it would go sub-MOA with a developed hand-load, however I do not currently reload.
My Templar has been utterly reliable and the handful of different folks who have handled and fired it were very positive in their comments. It is a well-made, "beefy" rifle that is unlikely to suffer a catastrophic failure due to Piston breakage or something similar. I last had my rifle out this past Sunday. It was -15 with the wind-chill and the Templar never flinched once.
Just a couple of points to consider. Along with the obligatory gratuitous photo...
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My Templar has been utterly reliable and the handful of different folks who have handled and fired it were very positive in their comments. It is a well-made, "beefy" rifle that is unlikely to suffer a catastrophic failure due to Piston breakage or something similar. I last had my rifle out this past Sunday. It was -15 with the wind-chill and the Templar never flinched once.
Just a couple of points to consider. Along with the obligatory gratuitous photo...
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I have to say that's a great looking gun. Did you have any consideration at all for the crusader 9 with the 5.56 upper?
Your templar sounds like it shoots a great group for a semi-auto. Which trigger do you have in it?
Does the charging handle interfere with the optics when in the locked position?
When your changing between ammo do you notice much in terms of performance in the rifle?
Piston breakage is NOT "catastrophic" failure. it is simply the failure of a single part .... one that I might add, other commonly owned rifles have broken.
That Templar is a nice looking rifle though.
Your definition of a "Catastrophic Failure" evidently differs from mine. In my view, if a rifle suffers a parts breakage which renders it inoperable, then it has suffered such a failure. If a firearm stops working, that is a Failure. (to fire). If that stoppage is due to critical parts breakage without which the firearm will no longer function, that is a Catastrophic Failure. When you have a 9-lb "walking stick" along on your shooting trip, you have suffered a "Catastrophic Failure".
I do not view a Piston as a common part found within a field repair kit (which ought to fit in a trap-door pistol-grip). Pistons are a major component that ought not be snapping, and if they are, then it is a design failure. As regards the WK-180, I would have to suggest that the piston is too thin. The much beefier Templar piston has yet to suffer a breakage (to my knowledge), and selected rifles have now well-exceeeded 2K(+) rounds without cleaning and with total reliability.
The Templar is not perfect, but being an evlolved WS-MCR it is 2 generations advanced over the WK-180 which came first and has not substantively changed. The WK-180 suffers from routine Piston breakage, mostly due to loosening Gas Block Retention Screws, where it looses alignment and is forced to flex. This problem is largely avoided by routine preventative maintenance, however when you design a rifle as an entry-level product you have to take into account that maintenance (especially the preventative type), might not be the new owner's strong suit....
I did not consider the Crusader 9/Sentinel for 2 reasons - I already own a handful of PCCs that I can still lawfully discharge so the 9mm wasn't necessary, and the 5.56mm Sentinel is a "half-generation" behind the Templar in terms of design - relatively minor things like the aesthetics of the Lower Receiver, the shape of the Charging Handle and so forth.
I opted for the Trigger Tech. So far it is a nice trigger and well worth the upgrade. It totally changes the feel of the rifle and certainly enhances the rifle's practical accuracy.
Certain optic mounts do interfere with accessing the "HK Slap" function of the Charging Handle (CH), but not the normal back and forth travel of the CH itself. When you rotate the CH towards the centreline of the rifle in order to lock the CH in the retention slot for the "HK Slap", you rotate it against the side of your optic mount. making it difficult to access again to release the Bolt Carrier. I have a fairly narrow QD Scope Mount made by Kinetic Development Group (Side-Loc) that works OK with the Templar CH. Other, wider mounts like the American Defense "Recon" exacerbate interference right at the end of the CH's travel, where the optic mount for an LPVO is generally placed.
The beauty of the Templar is the fact that it has a self-regulating Gas Block. This means that you can switch between ammo types and theoretically the rifle will simply "sip" what it needs from each different load to cycle the action. There is plenty of footage in the Sootch Review Video of the Templar going from Muzzle Brake to Suppressed and back and forth without a hiccup. That is a huge testament to the function of the self-regulating Gas Block, as the addition of a conventional (eg; non-flow-through) silencer dumps huge back-pressure into the rifle's operating system, which the Gas Block must vent off to prevert abusive cycling of the action. Conversely, when you take the suppressor off, the rifle still has to function reliably without any of that back-pressure. Again, the Templar functioned reliably both suppressed and unsuppressed., which is a far bigger deal than changing brands of SAAMI-spec ammo.
Catastrophic failure means the gun is an ex-gun, it is no longer a gun, it has gone to the great gun graveyard in the sky. A single broken part is not catastrophic.
Your logic is inconsistent. A part that breaks and renders the thing inoperable is just a failure. but another part that breaks and renders the thing inoperable is somehow a catastrophic failure? Even though the end result is the same for both? That one part is bigger than another is irrelevant.
Which parts of a firearm that could break and render it inoperable are critical parts, and which are not? Is a trigger spring or a trigger pin a critical part? Why is the gas piston somehow more critical than a trigger spring or a firing pin? You are justifying your dislike of the WK with illogical arguments.
How many commonly available rifles in Canada contain a field repair kit in their grip? How many rifles come with a field repair kit? Hint the answer is, none. Thus this is a red herring argument.
You claim piston breakage in the WK is "routine" and then admit it can be avoided by routine maintenance. Both of those things can't be true. I'm not saying it can't happen but it certainly is not happening at the frequency you claim.
FWIW there was a thread on this forum where someone claimed the piston in their SKS broke. Sometimes sh!t happens. It may be annoying and it may be avoidable but unless the gun fully disassembles itself at high velocity, the issue can be fixed and is not "catastrophic". Experience also shows these things happen to many different guns.
Look, we get that you HAAAAAATE the WK180 with the fire of a thousand suns, and that's fine but lets not go full #dramaqueen over other people's choices.
Bulged barrel, cracked/blown out upper receiver, sheared lower (pivot pin holes) as a tech I'd consider those are catastrophic failures.
Broken piston, cracked bolt, twisted handguard, broken mag catch, etc etc etc. Those are not catastrophic. Those are first/second line repairs.
I'd even argue that the bulged barrel is....not quite catastrophic. But it's in the ballpark.
Broken piston, cracked bolt, twisted handguard, broken mag catch, etc etc etc. Those are not catastrophic. Those are first/second line repairs.
I'd even argue that the bulged barrel is....not quite catastrophic. But it's in the ballpark.
So I was wrong, and am never afraid to admit it. I looked up the definition of a Catastrophic Failure, which more or less hinges upon a Non-Recoverable problem. Therefore, if any part fails that can be replaced (including a barrel), then it is simply parts breakage. I suppose one could try to further define the term based on the level of support needed to rectify the failure (user, versus warranty center, versus production facility), but I don't really see the point of that. As "I don't Care" and "EvanAzzo" said, Catastrophic Failure implies that the gun itsef is completely toast, therefore the Receiver (or part considered the firearm) is irretrievably damaged. That's it, that's all. I was evidently taught incorrect information and have been labouring under an erroneous understanding for 35 years! It jjust goes to show that no matter how old and experienced you become, you can always learn something new!
I hear you. I prefer many other semi-auto 5.56mm rifles over the Templar as well. However, of the limited selection that our lizard overlords still permit us to legally discharge, it is not a bad choice. Not the best, but not bad The Templar wasn't getting much discussion in this thread, which is why I mentioned the rifle and its capabilities. When choices are limited, every decent option is worth consideration.
Enjoy your SL-8. I quite liked the one that I had a few years ago, although it had been heavily modified with a G36K Front End and an ACR buttstock on a Stock-Block conversion. It was great until the parts-kit G36s appeared for not much more $$, then I had to have one of those instead! Truth be known, my favorite 5.56mm HK was not the G36 or SL8, but rather my MR223A3 Sadly, I am no longer trusted by the goverment to own a semi-automatic facsimile of the rifle that I carried in service to Canada for 30 years. Mores the pity, as the German AR has a better trigger than the G36, muscle-memory controls, shorter length, it is more adjustable and modular, etc. The HK416/MR223 is arguably the best piston-driven 5.56mm AR to ever enter large-scale production.
One of my favorites as well. Unfortunately it appears that it will never be leaving my safe again...
One of my favorites as well. Unfortunately it appears that it will never be leaving my safe again...
Never say Never, as things could still change for the better with a change of Government and a rewrite of the Firearms Act. Although some of my guarded optimism seems from where I happen to live, I do think that we all stand to benefit directly from a Pollievre government.
this.
I got it 4 posts ago. I think we are moving on now, unless you feel compelled to flog the dead horse...
They're nice rifles I have got to say. I have seen your ad. I'm just wrestling with my analytical brain on the topic trying to sort all the factors out before I seal the deal and send the money down range. I do like that neoprene case your wife made. I can sew and I may make a couple of those for my wooden guns that are prone to dings in my small cabinet... gun cabinets I realize now are truly designed for SKS rifles and handguns- everything else is too bulky to fit!
