Carcano shooting

[Claven2]

Figured I put this here and NOT the ammo and reloading forum, as many milsurpists don't go to the other forum.

What is everyone currently feeding carcanos? Many retailers are selling PPU soft point and FMJ rounds for the carcano, but the boxes I've seen are the .264 versions PPU sells and not the .268" versions. Generally not a great idea for accuracy.

Is anything else credible out there in Canada?

It seems a fair few guys were buying the Jet bullets (.268 round nose gas check cast I think?), but Jet is now out of business.

I have a few of the .268" hornady projectiles left, but apparently these have a tendancy to get either high friction or even stuck in bores and if you don't notice, you will get some case separations or worse, a barrel obstruction. I'm a bit leery of shooting the few I 50 or so I still have.

So what are ppl doing nowadays to shoot all the recent imports?

 

[Suther]

https://intersurplus.com/products/6...ts-by-ppu-100-pcs?_pos=1&_sid=c197641db&_ss=r

Cheers.

 

[Claven2]

cool, just ordered some.

I also have about 60 rounds of the undersized .264 ammo from PPU I can shoot to get the brass and supplement my dwindling supply of older Graf cases I was using to load the supposedly unsafe Hornady projectiles.

 

[Coffice]

https://intersurplus.com/products/6...ts-by-ppu-100-pcs?_pos=1&_sid=c197641db&_ss=r

Cheers.

Weird question, but could you pull the bullets from PPU .264 loaded projectile and just load the new projectiles to the cases? Following all the normal loading procedure and such.

 

[Suther]

Weird question, but could you pull the bullets from PPU .264 loaded projectile and just load the new projectiles to the cases? Following all the normal loading procedure and such.

That's a good question. If it's a boat tail bullet (which these say they are) then it should physically work. I'm not sure if 0.004 difference is enough to prevent you from seating a flat base bullet but a boat tail should work.

That said I'm not sure what that would mean with regards to neck tension and pressure. My gut tells me it would be fine but I would want to do more research before I tried it myself...

 

[Andy]

It's been a while since I shot one of my Carcanos, but it's always been handloads using Prvi brass, and although I have shot the Hornady 0.268, it's been mostly cast bullets such as the Lyman 266469, the Lee Custom "Cruise Missile" and sized down 270 (0.277") cast and jacketed bullets.

There's been an incredible amount of shade thrown at the Carcano by North Americans over the decades all of it IMO being due to ignorance and chauvinism (we beat the Italians and therefore their stuff is all crap). To whit, I believe that:

1. The Carcano is not a "weak" action.

2. There are loads that are safe other than ones that were created by Hornady.

3. There's no need for special bullets and there's nothing wrong with the Hornady 0.268"

These are hills some guys will die on based on hearsay and myths.

I am always happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Claven2]

Andy do you shoot the Hornaday 268's in your gain twist carcanos?

 

[MiG25]

Might be time to get a Carcano, never had one but I do have the book "Italy's Battle Rifle".

 

[Rwilco]

Weird question, but could you pull the bullets from PPU .264 loaded projectile and just load the new projectiles to the cases? Following all the normal loading procedure and such.

The .264 bullets won't shoot straight out of a Carcano but my limited understanding is that it shoots.

3. There's no need for super special bullets and there's nothing wrong with the Hornady 0.268"

Any .268 bullet seems "super special" to me. I guess you can get them or you can't. Almost as bad these days for .303 Brit projectiles as 6.5 Carcano projectiles. Maybe 6.5 Carcano not as bad as .22 Savage HP projectiles.

 

[Claven2]

Might be time to get a Carcano, never had one but I do have the book "Italy's Battle Rifle".

Great North Guns has them at an unbeatable sale price right now.

 

[Claven2]

Any .268 bullet seems "super special" to me. I guess you can get them or you can't. Almost as bad these days for .303 Brit projectiles as 6.5 Carcano projectiles. Maybe 6.5 Carcano not as bad as .22 Savage HP projectiles.

The war in Ukraine has all the manufacturers taking more military contracts, so less common specialty ammunition and components are in short supply. That will change again, the situaiton is somewhat temporary.

 

[DiMP]

It seems a fair few guys were buying the Jet bullets (.268 round nose gas check cast I think?), but Jet is now out of business.

I have been loading my Carcano for a year and a half with the .268 Cast from Jet, but as you mentioned he is closed down now. I only have about 200 bullets left, so I'm personally hoping for someone else to start making .268 cast (I planned to put a WTB on the EE in the new year to see if anyone has molds and willing to cast some)

Great North Guns has them at an unbeatable sale price right now.

I just received a Carcano from them (now I have 2). Haven't shot it yet but it seems to be in decent shape for a 90 year old rifle

 

[Coffice]

The .264 bullets won't shoot straight out of a Carcano but my limited understanding is that it shoots.



Any .268 bullet seems "super special" to me. I guess you can get them or you can't. Almost as bad these days for .303 Brit projectiles as 6.5 Carcano projectiles. Maybe 6.5 Carcano not as bad as .22 Savage HP projectiles.

I’ve tested most of the factory available 6.5 Carcano rounds and the best performing were the classic Norma 160ish grain round nose. Haven’t been in production in decades but I found two boxes at a gun show. Some research showed these were 0.268 and loaded very close to the military issued round’s performance.

The PPU options are okay like you said. I’ve tried the lower grain rounds as well but still a lot of miss and not so much hit.

Actually I’d have to check I think Norma does still make these projectiles but not the rounds. I might have one or two left I should reconfirm the specs.

 

[Andy]

Andy do you shoot the Hornaday 268's in your gain twist carcanos?

Hi Ron,

I have used those bullets only sparingly (even when they were first introduced they were scarce, so I rationed them), although I've shot them in both M91 (gain twist) and M91/41 (not gain twist) - certainly not enough to prove anything.

It would be a great service for anyone to provide insight to prove/disprove the criticisms of the Carcano. For example, gain twist is unusual and so is naturally a magnet for suspicion, but it's not only found in Carcanos. What is known about it in the shooting world? Is it known there to strip some bullets of their jackets? Exotic and expensive, but some people are willing to pay for it.

Even after various "purges" I still have a M91 that I'd be happy to shoot again.

 

[Claven2]

From what I've read, the original carcano bullet was .266 with an open base that flared out into the rifling to act like a driving band.

Nobody today makes a bullet like that, unfortunately.

What we have on the market are solid based bullets, by and large, designed to double as hunting projectiles. Even the Hornaday bullet is soft nosed.

 

[Andy]

From what I've read, the original carcano bullet was .266 with an open base that flared out into the rifling to act like a driving band.

Nobody today makes a bullet like that, unfortunately.

What we have on the market are solid based bullets, by and large, designed to double as hunting projectiles. Even the Hornaday bullet is soft nosed.

Here's one of my my gripes with some Milsurp "Knowledge". Much of it does not come from original sources, its source is decades of people making assumptions that enter into Milsurp "Folklore" as sacred fact. Here's one example pertaining to bullets:

1. No-one could possibly know more than the original manufacturer of ammo, so the best shooting ammo can only be what's identical to the original; and
2. With respect to open bases, the reason was for it to obturate to fill the bore. So look to #1 and your rifle will only shoot well with open-based bullets.

This "fact" is particularly popular with in 303 Brit circles. Both, neither of one of those two assumptions might be true, but the problem is that shooters have developed accurate loads that "violated" one of both of those maxims.......... If I can shoot a Lee Enfield accurately with a close base bullet (I can) why can't someone do the same with a Carcano?

I looked through some of my hoard looking for Milsurp 6.5X52 ammo only found 1950 Belgian manufacture (FN 50) 6.5X54 made for Greece. The bullets have an open base. So as a minimum we know that open base ammo wasn't restricted to use in Lee Enfields and Carcanos.



Why not try removing the clad base material on a bullet, exposing the lead and see if it shoots better. If it does, then maybe it obturated and shot better because the barrel shoots better with larger bullets. Or just choose to start with a larger bullet to achieve the same result....

Again, I'm skeptical of many claims but always open to being wrong.

 

[Claven2]

With the Hornaday bullets Andy, the diameter is what many carcanos slug to for groove diameter, .268". In practise my examples all mic to .267 though.

We know Hornaday nearly doubled jacket thickness on their bullet compared to other jackets in their lineup, presumably because the jacket was getting cut through by gain twist rifling.

Conventional wisdom is that in some guns. The current bullet could cause jacket separation and the jacket could get stuck in the bore. It has not happened to me, but internet sources claim to have had it happen. I've never seen a photo.

The story goes that Hornaday should have made their bullets open base and 2 thou smaller.

If I were designing a bullet to try, I'd go .266 and use a nosler partition design with a jacket material web halfway up the bullet, separating 2 cores, so you can have both open base and soft nose, but be a long bore rider round nose.

I think that would be promising.

 

[R005t3r]

Here's one of my my gripes with some Milsurp "Knowledge". Much of it does not come from original sources, its source is decades of people making assumptions that enter into Milsurp "Folklore" as sacred fact. Here's one example pertaining to bullets:

1. No-one could possibly know more than the original manufacturer of ammo, so the best shooting ammo can only be what's identical to the original; and
2. With respect to open bases, the reason was for it to obturate to fill the bore. So look to #1 and your rifle will only shoot well with open-based bullets.

This "fact" is particularly popular with in 303 Brit circles. Both, neither of one of those two assumptions might be true, but the problem is that shooters have developed accurate loads that "violated" one of both of those maxims.......... If I can shoot a Lee Enfield accurately with a close base bullet (I can) why can't someone do the same with a Carcano?

I looked through some of my hoard looking for Milsurp 6.5X52 ammo only found 1950 Belgian manufacture (FN 50) 6.5X54 made for Greece. The bullets have an open base. So as a minimum we know that open base ammo wasn't restricted to use in Lee Enfields and Carcanos.

View attachment 641177

Why not try removing the clad base material on a bullet, exposing the lead and see if it shoots better. If it does, then maybe it obturated and shot better because the barrel shoots better with larger bullets. Or just choose to start with a larger bullet to achieve the same result....

Again, I'm skeptical of many claims but always open to being wrong.

Thank you gentleman for those rare pearls of knowledge and deductive reasoning.

Merry Christmas!

 

[Andy]

With the Hornaday bullets Andy, the diameter is what many carcanos slug to for groove diameter, .268". In practise my examples all mic to .267 though.

We know Hornaday nearly doubled jacket thickness on their bullet compared to other jackets in their lineup, presumably because the jacket was getting cut through by gain twist rifling.

Conventional wisdom is that in some guns. The current bullet could cause jacket separation and the jacket could get stuck in the bore. It has not happened to me, but internet sources claim to have had it happen. I've never seen a photo.

The story goes that Hornaday should have made their bullets open base and 2 thou smaller.

If I were designing a bullet to try, I'd go .266 and use a nosler partition design with a jacket material web halfway up the bullet, separating 2 cores, so you can have both open base and soft nose, but be a long bore rider round nose.

I think that would be promising.

Yes it's the same with Sasquatch and Aliens - all we have are blurry photos... How many times have we heard "A friend of mine heard from his cousin that a gunsmith said..." There's always someone with authority in the trail. Then there's the Resident Expert Bob, who's 90 and remembers speaking with an old man in the 1950's who had worked for <fill in the blank> and he said that <fill in the blank>. No-one dare challenge Bob. If anyone made statements like that in a book they should be pilloried, yet I've seen it.

Maybe ammo manufacturers made ammo open base because it obturates and would be used in a wide variety of rifles with wide variations in bore measurements - maybe.

I've never had a jacket separate from a core and the notion of it happening seems counter-intuitive - the rifling presses the jacket deep into the core, so how does it "squirt" out? But I'm only saying that it hasn't happened to me and it seems unlikely - I don't really know.

 

[Andy]

Yes it's the same with Sasquatch and Aliens - all we have are blurry photos... How many times have we heard "A friend of mine heard from his cousin that a gunsmith said..." There's always someone with authority in the trail. Then there's the Resident Expert Bob, who's 90 and remembers speaking with an old man in the 1950's who had worked for <fill in the blank> and he said that <fill in the blank>. No-one dare challenge Bob. If anyone made statements like that in a book they should be pilloried, yet I've seen it.

Maybe ammo manufacturers made ammo open base because it obturates and would be used in a wide variety of rifles with wide variations in bore measurements - maybe.

I've never had a jacket separate from a core and the notion of it happening seems counter-intuitive - the rifling presses the jacket deep into the core, so how does it "squirt" out? But I'm only saying that it hasn't happened to me and it seems unlikely - I don't really know.

As for your idea, the notion of a bullet that can work in a wide variety of 6.5mm bore (e.g. 260 rem, 6.5X55, 6.5 Jap, 6.5X52, 6.5X54) sounds like a good one, but the sales might not justify the costs - there are already many excellent 6.5mm bullets, so who cares about the puny milsurp market. The beauty of cast bullets is that you at least used to be able to design a custom mold (Mountain Molds!) and that they can drop "fat" and be sized down.

Why not take a few 6.5mm 0.264" bullets and drill a 3/4 bore diameter hole in their base just through the jacket so as to expose the lead and compare?