Apologies' for the "click bait" heading but it's still accurate. And I sincerely apologize for not being able to insert pictures or hotlink at this time. However;
A long story shortened as much as possible, for no particular reason at all I am on an 1897 Winchester kick.. and I accidentally found something while researching what I wanted to buy for a project gun.
Looking at the last imports left in the country and comparing pictures of them to my IAC trench gun and an original 97 I have access to, I started looking harder at pics and videos at the machining on the receivers , etc. on the available ones.
These latest and supposedly last ever imports have a different contour on the rear bottom of the receiver where it interfaces with the butt and trigger guard than any Chinese copy I've seen before.. then I found this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2E45CK_Vew
That looks like it was made on the same tooling as these new horribly billboard sign import marked ones;
https://durhamoutdoors.ca/NORINCO-1897-TRENCH-GUN-c-12GA-2-34-20-BBL-WOOD-STOCK_p_1670.html
https://www.gotenda.com/product/norinco-model-1897-12-ga-3-trench-shotgun-51/
Now here's an "Italian Chaparral" Same hammer profile as the recent "Chinese" ones, which I've never seen on another Chinese copy, just like the differing contour of the lower receiver, but are identical to the "Italian" one..
https://greatnorthgunco.ca/product/winchester-1897-chaparral-arms/
Then there's this thread here on CGN, discussing where these are actually being made initially, complete with conjecture, suspicion, conspiracy and concrete claims to the dispel them..
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...216-Where-are-the-Chaparral-1897-s-made/page3
In that thread a member links in the first post an American board where it's insinuated the chaparral's are made in china. They link Cimarron website and there this is quoted;
"RECENTLY RELEASED AFTER A LONG WAIT IS THE NEW CIMARRON REPEATING ARMS MODEL 97. IT IS A WELL MADE REPRODUCTION OF AN ORIGINAL SOLID FRAME 1897 WINCHESTER PUMP WITH EXPOSED HAMMER. FORMERLY MADE BY NORINCO IN CHINA...THERE HAVE BEEN NONE FOR THE PAST YEAR AND A HALF. THE NEW GUN IS ALSO MADE IN CHINA BUT BY POLYTECH,PRC. IT HAS A 20" CHROME LINED BARREL WITH A SCREW IN CHOKE, HOLDS FIVE ROUNDS, IS NICELY BLUED AND HAS A VERY NICE WALNUT STOCK WITH SOFT RECOIL PAD. NEW IN THE BOX AND READY TO GO COWBOY SHOOTING."
Now, Marstar had Cimarron 1897s marked as such once upon a time. The ones they have in stock now are listed with a chrome lined bore and screw in choke, which fits the norinco description by cimarron, but Marstar is not claiming these are marked as Cimarron on their website.
And their old Chaparrals which some claimed were made in china and others claimed otherwise..... look to be made on the exact same tooling as the new 2019 imported norinco ones
Then add to that, one of the initial stages of the covid thing, Italy was found to have had an early outbreak due to........ chinese tooling and workers being brought over to set up production in Italy in order to claim whatever they had been making was now "Italian made" due to import laws IIRC.
Then another site, SAAS wire had this quote about the chaparrals and where they come from initially;
"Well, if it is made in Italy it will probably cost at least 2 grand. I wonder if they are just taking over importation of the Chinese IAC or more likely the TTN 1878 and TTN 97 into Canada and Europe. That first web-site is a Canadian import company. Chaparral is pretty much out of the US market due to the junkiness of the 73."
Well folks, we have a more recent possible example for Italians using chinese manufacturing, and then older conjecture and claims that that was exactly what they were doing with the earlier imported 97 clones.
I offer no answers here...just facts I've noticed
My excuse for this inane and unimportant effort in rambling ------------------It's just nice to have fun for once by looking forward to getting a new firearm not on the list...researching and thinking of anything interesting or amusing or conspiracy oriented to do with just that and doesn't have anything to do with the complete collapse of our..... .. well you get it
That and the muscle relaxants. Yup...definitely a factor.. Hurt so damn bad earlier. Damned ice..... but now....
All the best guys and feel free to discuss if you have as much time to waste as I did just now
A long story shortened as much as possible, for no particular reason at all I am on an 1897 Winchester kick.. and I accidentally found something while researching what I wanted to buy for a project gun.
Looking at the last imports left in the country and comparing pictures of them to my IAC trench gun and an original 97 I have access to, I started looking harder at pics and videos at the machining on the receivers , etc. on the available ones.
These latest and supposedly last ever imports have a different contour on the rear bottom of the receiver where it interfaces with the butt and trigger guard than any Chinese copy I've seen before.. then I found this;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2E45CK_Vew
That looks like it was made on the same tooling as these new horribly billboard sign import marked ones;
https://durhamoutdoors.ca/NORINCO-1897-TRENCH-GUN-c-12GA-2-34-20-BBL-WOOD-STOCK_p_1670.html
https://www.gotenda.com/product/norinco-model-1897-12-ga-3-trench-shotgun-51/
Now here's an "Italian Chaparral" Same hammer profile as the recent "Chinese" ones, which I've never seen on another Chinese copy, just like the differing contour of the lower receiver, but are identical to the "Italian" one..
https://greatnorthgunco.ca/product/winchester-1897-chaparral-arms/
Then there's this thread here on CGN, discussing where these are actually being made initially, complete with conjecture, suspicion, conspiracy and concrete claims to the dispel them..
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/for...216-Where-are-the-Chaparral-1897-s-made/page3
In that thread a member links in the first post an American board where it's insinuated the chaparral's are made in china. They link Cimarron website and there this is quoted;
"RECENTLY RELEASED AFTER A LONG WAIT IS THE NEW CIMARRON REPEATING ARMS MODEL 97. IT IS A WELL MADE REPRODUCTION OF AN ORIGINAL SOLID FRAME 1897 WINCHESTER PUMP WITH EXPOSED HAMMER. FORMERLY MADE BY NORINCO IN CHINA...THERE HAVE BEEN NONE FOR THE PAST YEAR AND A HALF. THE NEW GUN IS ALSO MADE IN CHINA BUT BY POLYTECH,PRC. IT HAS A 20" CHROME LINED BARREL WITH A SCREW IN CHOKE, HOLDS FIVE ROUNDS, IS NICELY BLUED AND HAS A VERY NICE WALNUT STOCK WITH SOFT RECOIL PAD. NEW IN THE BOX AND READY TO GO COWBOY SHOOTING."
Now, Marstar had Cimarron 1897s marked as such once upon a time. The ones they have in stock now are listed with a chrome lined bore and screw in choke, which fits the norinco description by cimarron, but Marstar is not claiming these are marked as Cimarron on their website.
And their old Chaparrals which some claimed were made in china and others claimed otherwise..... look to be made on the exact same tooling as the new 2019 imported norinco ones
Then add to that, one of the initial stages of the covid thing, Italy was found to have had an early outbreak due to........ chinese tooling and workers being brought over to set up production in Italy in order to claim whatever they had been making was now "Italian made" due to import laws IIRC.
Then another site, SAAS wire had this quote about the chaparrals and where they come from initially;
"Well, if it is made in Italy it will probably cost at least 2 grand. I wonder if they are just taking over importation of the Chinese IAC or more likely the TTN 1878 and TTN 97 into Canada and Europe. That first web-site is a Canadian import company. Chaparral is pretty much out of the US market due to the junkiness of the 73."
Well folks, we have a more recent possible example for Italians using chinese manufacturing, and then older conjecture and claims that that was exactly what they were doing with the earlier imported 97 clones.
I offer no answers here...just facts I've noticed
My excuse for this inane and unimportant effort in rambling ------------------It's just nice to have fun for once by looking forward to getting a new firearm not on the list...researching and thinking of anything interesting or amusing or conspiracy oriented to do with just that and doesn't have anything to do with the complete collapse of our..... .. well you get it
That and the muscle relaxants. Yup...definitely a factor.. Hurt so damn bad earlier. Damned ice..... but now.... All the best guys and feel free to discuss if you have as much time to waste as I did just now
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