Sorry if I'm in the wrong place.
- Thread starter Timeless
- Start date
h ttps://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/sor-98-209/page-1.html
Can't be readily accessible, so as long as both aren't out in the open. If the gun is locked up, then the ammo doesn't need to be. You can't have both of them unlocked side by each. But, when it comes to firearm safety and gun-laws, it's always better to do more than the bare minimum
Can't be readily accessible, so as long as both aren't out in the open. If the gun is locked up, then the ammo doesn't need to be. You can't have both of them unlocked side by each. But, when it comes to firearm safety and gun-laws, it's always better to do more than the bare minimum
Sorry, but I read that as saying 'ammo locked in container' IE - ". . . in a container or receptacle that is kept securely locked and that is constructed so that it cannot readily be broken open or into. "
So they can be 'together' but BOTH need to be locked up. JMO and I am not a lawyer. Check with a lawyer to be sure if you can't afford an ammo box with a lock. NOT info here, I'm just a 'belt and suspender' type of guy when my home and livelihood are involved. The feds can make your life miserable and F- your home and savings if you're busted, even if you 'beat the rap' it'll cost you beaucoup.
For your own peace of mind, 1) look up the regs at the link posted above and 2) GET PROFESSIONAL ADVICE.
PS - DON'T ASK A PONY, you might regret it.
So they can be 'together' but BOTH need to be locked up. JMO and I am not a lawyer. Check with a lawyer to be sure if you can't afford an ammo box with a lock. NOT info here, I'm just a 'belt and suspender' type of guy when my home and livelihood are involved. The feds can make your life miserable and F- your home and savings if you're busted, even if you 'beat the rap' it'll cost you beaucoup.
For your own peace of mind, 1) look up the regs at the link posted above and 2) GET PROFESSIONAL ADVICE.
PS - DON'T ASK A PONY, you might regret it.
Very timely thread given some recent news items about people charged with unsafe storage.
I thought I'd take a look at this again in the regs and while I wish that the ammunition storage piece is spelled out explicitly, it's not really but it is by implication. The storage and transport of NR, R and P class firearms is spelled out explicitly.
Buck 1950 is right - it can be locked up together in a safe or cabinet. In all cases, the ammo can obviously not be loaded in the gun.
If the ammo is not locked away, then the gun must be. So the ammo can't be available to load into the gun. But I think it's pretty common sense even in these cases, that the ammo is out of reach of children and not easily accessible.
I agree that it is better to exceed what is mandated in the legislation to be on the safe side. Even if you are technically right on the bare minimum, you may encounter a LEO who may not be certain (or is mistaken) about what the requirements are. I know a fellow who trigger locks ALL his NR rifles in his safe, even though technically he doesn't have to. For me, all my rifles are in safes/cabinets. Some of the ammo is in cabinets, others in ammo tins on a high shelf, not accessible to the firearms. Regardless, I still changed the lock to the room from a passage knob to a keyed knob and have the key hidden away. It may be overkill but I'd rather be on the safe side.
I agree, it is rather difficult to lock up all ammunition in containers. Better have it in a locked dedicated room with dead bolt. And inside the room have the firearms (NR) either in a safe or trigger locked.
We can all see it over and over again that if the SHTF, charges are being recommended quite often. Even if in most cases no charges are being laid, better spend the money on safe storage then on a lawyer.
Unfortunately the regs' wording, just like most legislation, can leave some ambiguity and begs for additional clarity. When I went for my Restricted upgrade course last year for my PAL, the instructor was showing us a plastic handgun carrying case and said from the law's perspective this can be used to store/transport a handgun as it is lockable, opaque and not easily broken into. But he also added whose definition is it of "easily broken into". Someone with some power cutting tools can easily defeat the lockable plastic loops for which a padlock, etc is attached. Similarly one can install a lockable door knob. Is this easily broken into? Depends on who you talk to.
Some people run out of safe/cabinet space and now have to use their gun cases (soft or hard) to store their firearms. They are trigger locked, and the cases have a lock on one of the security loops. But it is either plastic, or in the case of a soft case, the zippered holes are metal. Can all this be "easily defeated"? Probably. I guess in the end, if you show every effort to comply with the storage laws, I would have to think that would be to your credit.
Ambiguity. This is why when Mendicino was questioned about the new record keeping regs for retail firearms establishments (keeping 20 years of records instead of 7) last year and he was asked directly by a reporter under what grounds other than a warrant can the authorities demand and confiscate said records, Mendicino said "if they have reasonable grounds". This could be one thing to one person and another to another. This is why I agree that it's best to get legal advice if one really wants to be sure, but in the meantime just exceed what is understood to be the bare minimum just in case. Legal wording can and will be misconstrued, misinterpreted or misunderstood. I would just hate to be on the wrong side of that, based on some assumptions I made.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
It gets about as twisted as you or others want to make it - requirements of storage for NR include not loaded, "rendered inoperable" by remove bolt /bolt carrier or a device that prevents discharge - so what to do with the bolt? Set it on counter beside the rifle? "Locked container" - what to do with keys - on top surface of the lock box? Is not well thought out "rules" - certainly not complete thoughts - as if committee or bureaucrat only got part way in their thinking about it - if there was any thinking about it at all??
As if deliberately written that step-by-step, a judge, somewhere, has to apply the "law" to decide what the words mean for the "facts" in the case in front of him - and then still up to you to decide if the "facts" of your situation match up to the "facts" that the judge made his ruling on. So if you are "charged" (the Crown claims you broke the law), then your lawyer (or you) might be able to argue that a prior judge's decision implies that you are not guilty of breaking the law. I think, in the end though, subject to Appeal, it will be up to the judge who is hearing your case, what the words really mean.
As if deliberately written that step-by-step, a judge, somewhere, has to apply the "law" to decide what the words mean for the "facts" in the case in front of him - and then still up to you to decide if the "facts" of your situation match up to the "facts" that the judge made his ruling on. So if you are "charged" (the Crown claims you broke the law), then your lawyer (or you) might be able to argue that a prior judge's decision implies that you are not guilty of breaking the law. I think, in the end though, subject to Appeal, it will be up to the judge who is hearing your case, what the words really mean.
PS - PA often has "Cheap" padlocks in multi-paks where you get 4-5 locks (keyed the same) for maybe $15 or so. My key rings look like a janitor's, even so. And I've bought lotsa $$ of PA plastic cases, the 50s were about $7-8 last Summer. And I read that they're going on sale next week again but for ca $15 ??
I re-inforced my closet door and walls with 5/8 MDF carriage-bolted on and a house style dead-bolt.
ALL of that can be defeated but the idea is " . . . NOT EASILY ... ", not " ABSOLUTELY"
I re-inforced my closet door and walls with 5/8 MDF carriage-bolted on and a house style dead-bolt.
ALL of that can be defeated but the idea is " . . . NOT EASILY ... ", not " ABSOLUTELY"
- Location
- Western Manitoba
I don't think the storage regulations for firearms and ammo are about preventing theft - that is on you. I think is meant to prevent "accidents" - say, like kids getting into stuff that they should not be into.
On other hand, I do not think anyone on here can say what is or is not acceptable - that will be for the judge, in your case, to decide if you were onside or not with what the regulations mean. Even what is written on RCMP website is their opinion about it, not usually from a decision by a judge, to a particular set of facts.
On other hand, I do not think anyone on here can say what is or is not acceptable - that will be for the judge, in your case, to decide if you were onside or not with what the regulations mean. Even what is written on RCMP website is their opinion about it, not usually from a decision by a judge, to a particular set of facts.
1. Prevent theft vs. prevent unauthorized access: Agreed, but it's not actually stated, and I wish it was.
2. Interpretation: Also agreed. I don't mind "open to interpretation" if it's my interpretation that matters. But of course, nobody that matters will care about my interpretation. Is it actually difficult to write gun laws that are less open to interpretation? I'll confess that I'm only familiar with Canadian gun laws - Do other countries do a better job of it?
The polymer Magnum 50 cal lockable ammo cases were recently on sale for $7.99 up until the end of January. They went back to the normal price of $13.99 since.
Starting tomorrow (14) till the 26, the metal ammo cans (green/tan/black) will be on sale for $16.99 at PA.
A old school locker , or a cupboard with a keyed lock on the door works for me.
Will it stand up in court? maybe, it should; I have my guns in a gun vault, so I don't worry .
A drug dealer gets away with a loaded gun in his night stand in this F*** up country, so I gave up worrying about stupid stuff.
Will it stand up in court? maybe, it should; I have my guns in a gun vault, so I don't worry .
A drug dealer gets away with a loaded gun in his night stand in this F*** up country, so I gave up worrying about stupid stuff.
You can't have a gun with a trigger lock on it sitting beside a box of ammo either. Ammo cannot be readily accessible unless the AMMO is in a container or receptacle that is securely locked. The gun can also be in that container, but the opposite (the gun being in a container but the ammo is not) is NOT addressed in the regulations, therefore is not legal.
The only instance I know of this particular part of the regulations being tested in court involved a lady returning from hunting, leaving her gun in the rear part of her hatchback (the trunk, but not a trunk because its a hatchback?) and ammo in the glove box. 4 hours later (long enough that it was deemed storage not transport anymore) she got charged and convicted of careless storage of a firearm. (Case is R v Federuik, 2007. (Sask provincial court))
Remember it is not AMMO regulations you are breaking, it is the FIREARMS STORAGE REGS, which often gets confusing to people.
Nope. Locked room doesn't count. The regulations say "container or receptacle", they do not include the room wording that is used in other parts of the same regulations when discussing firearms storage. Even if you've got a purpose-built gun room you still can't have ammo readily accessible.
Part b iii includes Room, but part c does not:
Personally I've got a pile of ammo cans for the ammo I use often, and a toolbox for the random stuff, all locked with luggage locks (combo ones) from the dollar store. This way I am 100% in line with the law, no worries about the definition of "readily accessible" or any of that crap.
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Hmm...I am greatly confused now, so here's some real life scenarios...perhaps let me know how this may play out...
So I have a room where my safes are. The NR guns are in the safe. No trigger lock. Just in case, another safe has guns AND ammo in it (of course the ammo is separate in boxes and not loaded in the gun)...just to be sure, I put trigger locks on the rifles which have compatible ammo boxes locked up in the same safe (I don't think I need to do this with the trigger locks, but only the ones that have the ammo boxes that work in those guns I have the trigger lock on those guns). That should be within the regulations, I think...
I also have a safe with just ammo in it in that room. It is locked (the safe). I know that is acceptable.
But due to lack of room, I have no more room for further ammo storage. So I started buying plastic/polymer ammo bins from Princess Auto, load them with boxed ammo and have them on a high shelf. The ammo boxes aren't locked, but they are not "easily accessible" to the guns, since the guns are all locked in the safe. Is THAT OK? According to the regulations they should be.
All the same, I recently added a keyed lock on the room door, replacing the passage knob. Guess that doesn't make a difference to anything. I just hope I didn't need to buy individual pad locks on all of the plastic ammo bins. Sure, another safe to lock up all the ammo instead of ammo boxes would be easy but I don't want to spend that much money for ammo storage if I don't have to.
This is what drives me bonkers about these laws. I am sure I know what the firearms storage laws are - I just have to almost read into them to find out all the nuances of the ammo storage piece. I always read that there is no stipulation that the ammo MUST be locked up, just that it can't be accessible to the firearm, which either is trigger locked in the open, or locked with no trigger lock in the safe, and in either case the ammo can't be nearby unless locked in the same safe as the guns.
Is that okay? Depends on the judges interpretation of readily accessible. Does locking a gun in a safe make it not readily accessible to ammo? I have no idea. It seems that it should, but I don't have any case law to reference one way or the other, and I'm not looking to be the guy who tests it. Personally I lock it all up just to cover my ass, I can't afford a lawyer.
My suggestion would be go to the dollar store and buy however many combo locks you need. At $4 a piece its easy insurance IMO.
