CZ 457s are really nice as well and very upgradeable. I would go CZ over savage myself but thats just me
Good Starting Caliber for PRS - 308Win VS 6.5 Creedmoor VS 6.5 PRC VS ???
- Thread starter DerScharfSchutze
- Start date
CZ 457s are really nice as well and very upgradeable. I would go CZ over savage myself but thats just me
I have a Savage and Tikka 22LR. I would go with a CZ too.
Re Savage axis... You can go that way if you want but I would be leaning toward Tikka myself.
That said... When it comes to PRS, long term, you really want an action that has a Rem 700 foot print so at some point it can be placed into a chassis that runs AI pattern mags.
You want to make sure that the action basically replicates Rem 700 stroke with similar ejection port.
Some 223 actions are specifically designed around the shortness of the 223 round and that will limit your bullet seating depth to something that is shorter than ideal.
You want a 223 action with a stroke like a 308, then as you get more advanced, the action will not be your limiting factor to seating heavy bullets further out to maximize velocities. Seating VLD bullets out as far as possible in a long throat will help with your accuracy.
Oh ya, make sure you get a 1:7 barrel twist rate for the 223 if at all possible. Makes a big difference. 1:8 is not too bad though. Nothing slower though.
If you go with a 22lr you can go to a bunch of different events like CRPS and NRS.
https://rimfireprecision.ca/
https://www.northernrimfireseries.ca/
Currently, I'm not seeing any PRS centrefire matches scheduled in ON, so if you want to start shooting right away I would suggest rimfire.
As to which rimfire rifle, I think there's a lot of info in the rimfire section of the forum. You can also join the Facebook pages of the leagues that I mentioned and ask questions there.
Personally, I think the CZ is a better choice than the Savage.
You can look into the Rem 700 size rimfire actions but this will be a more costly proposition.
https://rimfireprecision.ca/
https://www.northernrimfireseries.ca/
Currently, I'm not seeing any PRS centrefire matches scheduled in ON, so if you want to start shooting right away I would suggest rimfire.
As to which rimfire rifle, I think there's a lot of info in the rimfire section of the forum. You can also join the Facebook pages of the leagues that I mentioned and ask questions there.
Personally, I think the CZ is a better choice than the Savage.
You can look into the Rem 700 size rimfire actions but this will be a more costly proposition.
The Axis is a great low-cost hunting rifle to get you in the field. Bolt lift is very heavy though, cycling the action from the shoulder while maintaining a sight picture through the optic is not an easy task.
If your goal was to get out hunting for as cheap as possible, I would absolutely recommend the Axis - me and two buddies own Axis rifles, and they've all killed big game. But that is where I draw the line, if you want to get into something like PRS you're going to spend so much money on chassis, ammo, optics, that I just don't see the point in trying to save a few hundred on the gun by going with an Axis rather than a Rem700 or Tikka.
I just purchased a rifle in 6mmARC. It's a new(ish) cartridge from Hornady. I looked at 6cm and win .243....243 has too slow of a twist and both those options are hard on barrels. The upside is that 6mm/.243 bullets are very common and come in many sizes.From what I've read, the ARC is waay easier on barrels, seems to be very accurate(even with factory loads), has a 7.5:1 twist and if reloading, uses about 28-30 grs. of powder (depending on the powder of course). I spoke to Starline and they plan on making brass for it by the end of 2023. It's easy to resize 6.5 Grendal until then. I just purchased 200 rounds of factory...with the price of components and starline brass (when it gets here), it was going to cost the same anyway. The ARC also uses small rifle primers...easier to find then large rifle!
DerScharfSchutze
Regular
Thanks for your response.
I spoke with the ORA and they advised that they are still scheduling events for 2023, and will post them shortly. When that happens, I am assuming that more centerfire events will be available.
I know the savage is not the best, but if I am going to spend $1K+ for the Tikka or CZ, I might as well get the T3x CTR, and work with that. The point of savage was a cheap entry-level with cheap caliber ammo, to get some experience. But if this is not the best route, I am okay to try something different.
Thoughts?
The ORA has Precision Rifle events, which are centrefire but they are not Precision Rifle Series events. Precision Rifle is prone shooting at paper targets on a square range with a spotter. It's a lot of fun and a bunch of the guys also shoot PRS. It's a good way to learn to shoot long range.
They also have F-Class and TR but these have different equipment requirements.
Rumour has it that the ORA may introduce PRS style shooting, but there are some obstacles to overcome first.
Don't cheap out on your optics, guns, and ammo. You don't need full Gucci kit but you should have a reliable rig that shoots 1 MOA or better in all conditions, or you will have a harder time actually developing your skills.
I can't remember where I heard or saw this first, but as the saying goes, no one gets into long range rifle shooting to save money
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
The more CF exposure you get, the less likely you will stay with the Tikka concept... but that is something you will explore with time.
For rimfire, my thoughts are based on being in the game since 2018 and doing very well in competition in BC. My biggest surprise was how much ammo played a role in success. In contrast, the rifle itself doesn't really need to be mega dollars - although many favor spending gobs of money on their rifle. Reliable function is paramount and a bunch of systems can be challenging to keep running at 100%
Mags are the single most important part of the system and I will leave you to research all the good, bad and ugly. Look for words like RIM LOCK, failure to extract, failure to eject, failure to feed, shaved bullet nose.... and of course, jamming in all its wonderous forms. Don't be surprised that many on this list cost a pretty penny. I will add durability as dropping mags is a thing.
Accuracy really starts with the ammo. Spend more, get more... there is no way around it. Rimfire ammo is at best flawed and if you want to compete, running the least flawed stuff just makes life better. For practise, you just need some level of consistency and a crap ton of it. If this is your game, firing 2 to 300 rds in each training session is easy.... 500rds is a good workout but many who take this game seriously can blow through this much ammo in a day. Learning the basic positional skills of this game is just repetition... lots and lots and lots of it.
Level of accuracy is typically 1" or so at 100yds... many rifles can do this with the right ammo - factory or custom. If you want to shoot LR prs like CRPS, then you test all the way to 300m+. Targets grow in size quickly with distance BUT that little 22LR can keep up and surprise with how small a cluster you can hammer with the right ammo/barrel combo.
The game is separated into 2 groups - short (out to 100m) and long (out to 400m+). Short is tied to game like Outlaw/NRL22 formats. Here pretty much any functional rimfire can work. This is where the Savage can do just fine (once any function issues are corrected). Long (CRPS, NRS)- gets more complicated as you really need to work with better quality ammos and barrel specs... ease of barrel swaps is a big plus.
For rifles to consider, the CZ457 tops the list for sure... for a bolt rifle. The range of options is huge, the actions/mags typically function out of the box... and accuracy is on par with anything as it is easy to swap barrels to suit any need.. Many of us have stopped worrying that the rimfire and centerfire are different... the basic skills carry over. Beyond that, the mechanical needs are different enough to be run as separate guns.
For me, I run a 10/22. There are so many advantages to have a semi but that is not common fashion so you can decide what floats your boat. Cost is way less vs built up bolt rifles and I have no issue competing with the bolts in LR games.... but the issues with Cdn law hangs over this choice.
so I also have a bolt rifle... Scorpio EM322A (huge posts in the rimfire forum). For dirt cheap, these rifles have shown some stunning performance and once you research what these are based on, you will understand why. This is a DIY special and can come with a host of flaws out of the box. the design is top drawer... the QC is meh. Once sorted out, they can rock. Bit of a gamble as they can vary batch to batch. The action is one of the best for this game and can run slick and fast.... if you prefer to run the 'name brand version', bring alot of money
Optics are going to be a huge part of your success. The range of travel you can do in one LR stage will make a centerfire shooter shudder. Amount of travel and how well a scope tracks will be critical to your success. LR rimfire PRS is one of the most demanding games for scopes in Canada. You don't need to spend a fortune but you need to choose from a range of optics that have proven to work. If staying short, then 30mm options are fine. If LR is on the menu, then go with a 34mm scope out of the gate... that is all I run today as the larger tube is just so nice to use.
Learn how to shim a scope as you will be needing all the travel a 34mm tube can give. A few ways to do this... just lean on parts and systems proven to work and hold up.
Reticles matter a bunch. I use scopes (Athlons) which have alot of reticle above the center. Holdovers will be super important and you will learn this with dialing. Xmas tree reticles are also the norm.
Plenty of info to chew on. Tons of ways to solve this riddle but #1 is does your rifle function? It is surprising the number of competitors that run unreliable systems.... despite their costs.
Jerry
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DerScharfSchutze
Regular
Jerry, thanks for your time and writing out all this extensive information. Its as helpful as confusing. I will need to do some more research.
I will spend some time in the rimfire forums and see what I can learn.
Thanks again.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
It is as simple or as complicated as you want it to be.... lots of great setups you just need to replicate if you don't want to nerd out on all the tech.
If you are near a CRPS match, they have rental rifles and everyone is eager to help. I am sure other groups also have rental rifles or loaners... just ask. You can get bogged down by everything or you can just dial in your dope for the target, hold upwind and send it.
Tons of fun, great people... many things work cause rimfire is really limited by your ammo. And it is really the only PRS series in ON right now.
Also, look up Mapleseed event... the best way to learn the basics of rifle fundamentals. And EVERYTHING you learn at a mapleseed event will help you build your PRS skills.
A must have book is the Wind reading book by Miller and Cunningham.
PM or email if you want to discuss further.
Jerry
If you are near a CRPS match, they have rental rifles and everyone is eager to help. I am sure other groups also have rental rifles or loaners... just ask. You can get bogged down by everything or you can just dial in your dope for the target, hold upwind and send it.
Tons of fun, great people... many things work cause rimfire is really limited by your ammo. And it is really the only PRS series in ON right now.
Also, look up Mapleseed event... the best way to learn the basics of rifle fundamentals. And EVERYTHING you learn at a mapleseed event will help you build your PRS skills.
A must have book is the Wind reading book by Miller and Cunningham.
PM or email if you want to discuss further.
Jerry
I'm wondering if a T1x / T3x pairing makes sense for ergonomics that transfer back and forth.
On the other hand, rimfire PRS and prone CF precision are different enough games to consider two totally different rifles.
Another advantage of different ergonomics is that it helps you remember different rulebooks as you hold each firearm.
On the other hand, rimfire PRS and prone CF precision are different enough games to consider two totally different rifles.
Another advantage of different ergonomics is that it helps you remember different rulebooks as you hold each firearm.
If Savage Axis is your choice for centerfire .223.... skip it and go straight to the .22 LR. There are perhaps a few small upgrades and things available for the Savage Axis, but the gun is absolutely not even remotely close to being acceptable for longevity in target shooting, especially any serious discipline like PRS/precision shooting. I can with say with just about 100% certainty, you would use the Axis a few times, and wish you went with something else.
Lots of guys have shot a Savage MKII in whatever flavor they preferred at rimfire PRS matches, and have done really really well them. As I mentioned in my previous post, the vast majority of extra items you buy to compete will transfer over to your centerfire gun when you hit that point. You aptly recognized the volume of shooting you get out of rimfire per $ spent, compared to .223 (let alone any other centerfire cartridge)
You'll also have the chance to genuinely use your .22 target gun far more than anything else... talk to most of the guys at rimfire PRS matches, and their centerfire gun might see a couple matches a year, if they're lucky... that's a ton of money to tie up in a rig that you realistically wont use often. I can assure you, you'll be infinitely more happy having all that gear and a good rimfire to be able to shoot a lot and learn even more. Almost 100% of what you'll learn shooting rimfire matches will transfer over to centerfire, when you're at that stage.
Consider the fundamentals of long range shooting; wind reading, proper position, trigger control, breaking a shot, DOPEing your rifle, etc. you will do all of those with a rimfire, and if you learn to read wind really well with a .22, you'll be miles ahead when you get into more centerfire shooting.
Many of the aforementioned fundamentals can be practiced at home without actual live firing, except to a large degree, wind reading. Wind reading is pretty much only learned on the range, and given how much wind affects a .22, you'll be hyper aware of what a bad wind call can do.
