Lee Collet Neck Die
- Thread starter I Dont Care About You
- Start date
I do have a lathe. I will take your advice and polish the two internal pieces. You are correct, they are not nearly as smooth as I had thought.
The chances of getting the mandrel the same size along its length is basically zero. A replacement mandrel is $4.
That was my first thought but the 30-30, 308 and 30-06 all use the same mandrel and they are all different lengths.
I have calipers. I was more thinking of the bullet seating pressure.
Sheesh - Take one of your loaded rounds, place nose down on a wooden surface, push down hard. If you cant dislodge the bullet, then all is good. No sense creating a problem if you dont have one...
Lee's instructions for the neck sizing collet die link here:
https://leeprecision.com/files/instruct/RM3512.pdf
As others have mentioned, the Lee instructions state to not cam over. You do not need "extra" force for the collet to press the brass neck against the steel mandrel. Brass is soft enough that you are exerting more force than you may think. But brass springs back, so it is recomended in the instructions that you rotate the case in the shell holder (maybe a quarter or half turn) and press a second time. I do this with my collet dies and it becomes muscle memory to rotate the case (no thinking required) and takes only a couple seconds more per case.
The undersized mandrels have been addressed above (and in the instructions), and can be ordered from Lee.
RE: the die (collet) sticking in the up position and buckled shoulders: The Lee instructions address this issue, it is easy to remedy.
I read somewhere, (its not in the Lee instructions) that the outside of the collet top should be greased so it can fucntion better inside the upper part of the die. Just a little grease, you don't need alot. This grease on the outside of the collet will not leak into the brass (if it does you applied too much), so no worries there. The grease makes the mechanism work much smoother, and I never had it stick in the closed position once I greased the collet.
My preference is to decap separately and I recommend do not use the neck sizing collet die for decapping. With the primer out before hand, you can get a better feel for the full process of what's happening with the neck as you move the ram and the collet closes.
https://leeprecision.com/files/instruct/RM3512.pdf
As others have mentioned, the Lee instructions state to not cam over. You do not need "extra" force for the collet to press the brass neck against the steel mandrel. Brass is soft enough that you are exerting more force than you may think. But brass springs back, so it is recomended in the instructions that you rotate the case in the shell holder (maybe a quarter or half turn) and press a second time. I do this with my collet dies and it becomes muscle memory to rotate the case (no thinking required) and takes only a couple seconds more per case.
The undersized mandrels have been addressed above (and in the instructions), and can be ordered from Lee.
RE: the die (collet) sticking in the up position and buckled shoulders: The Lee instructions address this issue, it is easy to remedy.
I read somewhere, (its not in the Lee instructions) that the outside of the collet top should be greased so it can fucntion better inside the upper part of the die. Just a little grease, you don't need alot. This grease on the outside of the collet will not leak into the brass (if it does you applied too much), so no worries there. The grease makes the mechanism work much smoother, and I never had it stick in the closed position once I greased the collet.
My preference is to decap separately and I recommend do not use the neck sizing collet die for decapping. With the primer out before hand, you can get a better feel for the full process of what's happening with the neck as you move the ram and the collet closes.
I cam over with my Rockchucker and Lee collet, zero issues. Have loaded thousands of rounds. Yes to greasing the fingers on the die.
Yes to de priming separately. I cut my pins off my collet die, can pull a bullet and resize the neck with a primer in if need be.
Yes to de priming separately. I cut my pins off my collet die, can pull a bullet and resize the neck with a primer in if need be.
I had exactly the same experience with the Lee collet neck die as you (ended up stripping the threads in the cap which I suspect are an engineered weak point).
I reached a point on brass fired several times that I couldn't get consistent neck tension so I purchased the undersized mandrel. This bought me a little more time until eventually even that didnt work and the bullets would fall into the case even after sizing due to hard brass / spring back.
I anneal now and never have such issues. Much more consistent.
I used a dry spray lube (graphite? moly?) on mine. No worries about leakage after it's dry. A quick spritz (after degreasing) and a few minutes drying time. Now that I think of it, I should check to see how the dry lube is holding up after sizing a bunch.
Its easier to grease the tapered sleeve the collet rides in, easily accessed when you pull the aluminum cap off. The objective of the Lee design is to neck size by "feel", which allows for variation in neck wall thickness, bullet OD etc. It takes a while to get the hang of it, some moreso than others...
- Location
- Western Manitoba
I found many comments on this thread to be helpful. I have an elderly 9.3x57 rifle - I had to create a "flair" to seat 285 grain cast bullets. Likely my klutziness, but upon first chambering, those rounds "dragged" - but second time in they did not - so I presumed there was enough "flair" still left to drag within the chamber neck, which pressed that in. Lee does not make a FCD die for 9.3x57 - so I got one for 9.3x62 - seems to have similar "squeeze" concept as their collet neck size dies - but I am still noodling how to cut that one down to squeeze the necks, after seating cast bullets. The FCD appears to be driven by contact with the shell holder - is no "cap" on the top of it. I am not seating to a crimp groove in those bullets - so pretty much leaves FCD as about my only option - I think. I also found a 9.3 "M" die, which might solve the issue by itself - to be tried, yet.
All the reading I did regarding cast bullets was you need to use a Lee Universal Expander Die and then get a series of NOE expander mandrels to bring the neck up to the right size to seat cast bullets without shaving the bearing surface. The NOE expanders include a flaring section.
I have got all the components and am just beginning to experiment with this setup. Seems to work really well so far.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Thanks for the suggestions! FYI - it was a Lee Univeral Exanding die that I used to create the flair to get that bullet to go in there without shavings. I had seen various Lyman "M" dies in different re-sizing sets that I had bought - they form like a "cup" that the bullet sits in - with the lower part of the neck tighter to give bullet tension - I think is typical to seat cast bullets to a "crimping groove" and then often do a "roll crimp" there - which likely makes the case neck to be smooth where the flair or "cup" had been - but my odd-ball arrangement wants the case mouth on a smooth part of the bullet - not in a groove - so why that lead me to look at Lee FCD dies - I am sure as you suggest, that there are other tools that would make similar results.
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you may want to read this. From a poster on Benchrest Central
J. Valentine
It does not size like that , it squeezes in on a central mandral. The only way you can reduce the length of neck area sized is by placing a machined washer over the case onto the shell holder. The thickness of the washer is the length of reduction.
Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .
If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful poilishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.
There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.
I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.
*****
J. Valentine
It does not size like that , it squeezes in on a central mandral. The only way you can reduce the length of neck area sized is by placing a machined washer over the case onto the shell holder. The thickness of the washer is the length of reduction.
Using The Lee Collet Die.
I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .
If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful poilishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.
There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not a usually problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I always use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any draging effect . Normally you dont need lube.
I make up a special batch 1/3 Fine Moly powder. 1/3 Pure graphite. 1/3 Aluminiumised lock graphite. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.
I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilise the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
John Valentine. © 21/01/2002.
*****
The bigger PITA that had with die in 223 and 308 was that the internal machining on these dies were chattered and rough.
I had to smooth them down because the die would stick in the up position.
And if you feed another case into when stuck, then its shoulder would collapse.[/QUOTE]
I've notice the shoulder collapse problem ( with my particular 303 rifle) was the shoulder was a bit longer due to a long chamber. When I neck size, the shoulder bumped on the collet base and collapse the brass shoulder.
To fix that, I just chamfer very gently the base of the collet and, no more brass collapse now.
I had to smooth them down because the die would stick in the up position.
And if you feed another case into when stuck, then its shoulder would collapse.[/QUOTE]
I've notice the shoulder collapse problem ( with my particular 303 rifle) was the shoulder was a bit longer due to a long chamber. When I neck size, the shoulder bumped on the collet base and collapse the brass shoulder.
To fix that, I just chamfer very gently the base of the collet and, no more brass collapse now.
Agreed
And how exactly do you get exactly 25lbs of force by hand?
