New Vanguard Won't Shoot Worth a Damn?

Dogleg said:
That's definitely an issue. Just starting at putting the bases on there's a few ways of screwing up, starting with the screws being different lengths. A bottomed out screw holds nothing. Remington 700 bases screw to the rifle but that's not the same as fitting. The rear action ring is lower on a Vanguard requiring either shimming or the proper thickness of base in the first place. Misalignments with the wrong bases are on the order of 20-40 thousandths, which is a lot of scope bending badness. Talley and Leupold get it right, Weaver has a shim warning that nobody reads and unless things have changed in the last few years few other mount makers have a clue. There's precious few Vanguard specific rails, so I'd wager there's a 700 rail that is "supposed to fit" in play. That gives the likelihood of bending the base to fit the action by tightening the screws so you can in turn bend the scope to match the crooked rail. A no-nonsense steel rail will bend the action to fit the base. Proper mounting of a rail involves properly bedding the rail to the action. That's more than you can expect of any counter guy, and would be Greek to a lot of gun-smiths as well. Sure a lot of hassle for a part that a hunter is better off without in the first place.

All this and we haven't even looked at the gun, rings or scope yet.;)
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If anyone wants to see a rough idea of how much cant there is with unshimmed Weaver bases, I installed these ones on a brand new rifle yesterday.

Hasn't stressed me out any, but Talley does have a different SKU for their Vanguard and R700 bases, which implies they are actually different. Considering that scope is never really planned to come off of that rifle, may upgrade to Talley.

20230412-122913.jpg
 
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Hey guys, got called in early for work. But, i can link this picture. These were all at 100 yards. First paper was what it shot originally, next paper was after the 4 hours. Still had crazy fliers, would never seem to just go straight (either high or low). I dunno. It felt bad. Oddly enough, I had some groups that were good, but those felt lucky.
https://imgur.com/a/T1abBpn

EDIT: Will upload photos of the rifle/rings/rail after work!

EDIT2: Said I forgot something at home haha. If you need more specific pictures, please let me know. https://imgur.com/a/B36Gxf8
 
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Mazeofmystery said:
Hey guys, got called in early for work. But, i can link this picture. These were all at 100 yards. First paper was what it shot originally, next paper was after the 4 hours. Still had crazy fliers, would never seem to just go straight (either high or low). I dunno. It felt bad. Oddly enough, I had some groups that were good, but those felt lucky.
https://imgur.com/a/T1abBpn

EDIT: Will upload photos of the rifle/rings/rail after work!

EDIT2: Said I forgot something at home haha. If you need more specific pictures, pease let me know. https://imgur.com/a/B36Gxf8
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That is some big vertical stringing!

I would go to the bed in this case, loose base /scope screws or a pooched optic normally are random on the target .
Vertical is quite often bedding .....
Cat
 
I have a 257 weatherby that shoots way less than 1" with handloads and 3/4" with most of the factory Ive tried. I only shoot three rounds. Light barrels heat up and bullets start walking around. If your shooting groups quickly theyre not gonna be impressive in my opinion. Vertical stringing is indicative to velocity changes or shooter forum. At 100 yards its shooter forum at that distance in my opinion. Recoil bothers people and a light 30-06 with heavy bullets will produce enough recoil for many to flinch. Inconsistent forum on the bench can lead to this type of stringing. Have a seasoned bench rest shooter try three rounds of the same ammo out of a cold gun that the vertical stringing pic produced. The sloped rail has absolutely ZERO to do with the groups unless loose as noted by others. Cabelas sells stuff and has no trained gunsmith, PERIOD
 
About Cabela's staff. I went there a couple of weeks ago. Our small town has a couple of shops but no Walmart of sports. Anyways the gentlemen who helped me were more than likely retired working part-time. Who knows what their experience is. Cary on
 
Longstud said:
I have a 257 weatherby that shoots way less than 1" with handloads and 3/4" with most of the factory Ive tried. I only shoot three rounds. Light barrels heat up and bullets start walking around. If your shooting groups quickly theyre not gonna be impressive in my opinion. Vertical stringing is indicative to velocity changes or shooter forum. At 100 yards its shooter forum at that distance in my opinion. Recoil bothers people and a light 30-06 with heavy bullets will produce enough recoil for many to flinch. Inconsistent forum on the bench can lead to this type of stringing. Have a seasoned bench rest shooter try three rounds of the same ammo out of a cold gun that the vertical stringing pic produced. The sloped rail has absolutely ZERO to do with the groups unless loose as noted by others. Cabelas sells stuff and has no trained gunsmith, PERIOD
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I can shoot decently. My old rifle was a ruger american without a brake. Kicked like a mule in comparison to this one, and i didn't flinch with it. Was shooting around 1 moa at 200 yards regularly.
To reinterate what I stated previously, i shot 40 rounds over a period of multiple hours in order to let the barrel cool between groups fired.
 
kamlooky said:
It sure looks like that scope is lower on the front than the rear?
Optical illusion?
Them bases mixed up?
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Nope...its a 35 and 36 just like a Rem 700 only they dont fit as well. Dogleg knows of what he speaks.
 
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Dogleg said:
That's definitely an issue. Just starting at putting the bases on there's a few ways of screwing up, starting with the screws being different lengths. A bottomed out screw holds nothing. Remington 700 bases screw to the rifle but that's not the same as fitting. The rear action ring is lower on a Vanguard requiring either shimming or the proper thickness of base in the first place. Misalignments with the wrong bases are on the order of 20-40 thousandths, which is a lot of scope bending badness. Talley and Leupold get it right, Weaver has a shim warning that nobody reads and unless things have changed in the last few years few other mount makers have a clue. There's precious few Vanguard specific rails, so I'd wager there's a 700 rail that is "supposed to fit" in play. That gives the likelihood of bending the base to fit the action by tightening the screws so you can in turn bend the scope to match the crooked rail. A no-nonsense steel rail will bend the action to fit the base. Proper mounting of a rail involves properly bedding the rail to the action. That's more than you can expect of any counter guy, and would be Greek to a lot of gun-smiths as well. Sure a lot of hassle for a part that a hunter is better off without in the first place.

All this and we haven't even looked at the gun, rings or scope yet.;)
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Hey, just wanted to say i think you're right. I checked the receipt, and its for a 700 rail. I'm absolutely choked if that's what's causing this. Returning it tomorrow and ordering rifle -specific parts from canada brass. Better safe than sorry.
 
I have owned a few Vanguard rifles, including a Sub Moa. The Sub Moa shot sub moa, but the bedding came apart when I removed the barreled action, so I bedded it, and floated the barrel. It shot worse after the work, so I built another pressure pad where the original one was, and it shot 3/4moa again. This was the only rifle that I bedded, that shot better with a pressure pad, and the Meateater was the only Vanguard that was extremely fussy as to loads. If the scope and mounts are good, bedding may help, or it may just be a very fussy rifle, and you haven't found a load that it likes. It's frustrating that some rifles are so fussy, but some really are that fussy.
 
Fussy rifles are a pain. You can usually get them going with bedding, trigger jobs, curing mounting issues, eliminating bad scopes,extensive load development and culminate with action trueing, before picking a suitable replacement barrel from your stock of replacement from your stash and calling in overnight gunsmithing favours. An enthusiast might have half of that done on the way home, and the rest on the weekend. You can also put a supercharger on your lawnmower and if thats entertaining to you might even be worth while.

There’s another option. If a production rifle maker wants to have an accurarcy guarantee, why not use it? This #### is supposed to work.
 
Dogleg said:
Fussy rifles are a pain. You can usually get them going with bedding, trigger jobs, curing mounting issues, eliminating bad scopes,extensive load development and culminate with action trueing, before picking a suitable replacement barrel from your stock of replacement from your stash and calling in overnight gunsmithing favours. An enthusiast might have half of that done on the way home, and the rest on the weekend. You can also put a supercharger on your lawnmower and if thats entertaining to you might even be worth while.

There’s another option. If a production rifle maker wants to have an accurarcy guarantee, why not use it? This #### is supposed to work.
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If the new mounting hardware and gunsmith mounting job doesnt work, i might just do that.
 
Mazeofmystery said:
Hey, just wanted to say i think you're right. I checked the receipt, and its for a 700 rail. I'm absolutely choked if that's what's causing this. Returning it tomorrow and ordering rifle -specific parts from canada brass. Better safe than sorry.
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Order yourself a torque wrench and a set of levels so you can start from scratch and mount things properly yourself, having the tools to do something yourself is never a bad choice.
 
I would first look at the scope and mounts.
I tried to sight in an inexpensive in-line ML with mid line Bushnell. Shots were all over the paper. I thought it was my loads or the sabots until I tried the open sights. It shot very well. The mounts were tight so I shipped the scope off to Bushnell and they replaced it. I put it on and problem solved.

Bill
 
Butcherbill said:
Order yourself a torque wrench and a set of levels so you can start from scratch and mount things properly yourself, having the tools to do something yourself is never a bad choice.
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Very good idea especially if you use the Talley lightweight rings. You can crush a tube if you're not careful
 
Suther said:
I would spend the money on tools over a gun Smith. Mounting a scope is a pretty simple task once you have the tools.
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Legit. Watch a couple youtube vids and take it slow and make a relaxing one beer job out of it lol. Okay maybe two.

Worse ways to spend time, then you can always do it yourself.
 
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