400 Yard Elk cartridge . what's your Pick

Perhaps being able to shoot at long range isn't the great advantage that many believe or have been sold by current firearms marketing. Is it possible other skills are more important?

We have had many guests hunting elk with us. It's fun to take out hunters who don't have as much opportunity or experience. Despite coaching them that they will do best if they stalk closer or wait for a good shot, some want to shoot at the first elk they see, regardless of distance. Some also handicap themselves by carrying rifles and scopes that in my opinion are better suited to long range target competition or shooting varmints than they are for hunting big game. Busy reticles with many hash marks disappear from view in the bush or get confusing in bad light. Twisty turrets are often set at the wrong distance and take time to adjust.

So as a result, they are not able to quickly get off a good, aimed shot from field positions when a typical opportunity presents itself. Technical advances in firearms and ammunition are wonderful. But at least some of hunting success is about stalking or interception skills, quick reflexes, and good judgement. Few hunters that I know actually practise getting an aimed shot off quickly and from improvised rests. Most just sit at a bench rest and dial their scopes and fiddle with their range finders and imagine shooting an animal way out there. And then because they can make good hits on targets at a range they assume they can do the same on game.

Elk are not targets. They move as triggers are squeezed, the light can be bad, the wind can blow bullets off course, unseen twigs can deflect a bullet, and any of that can result in the need for a follow up shot on a wounded animal. Can you quickly and accurately make another extreme long range shot on a trotting or running elk? Some can, but very few are actually that competent.
 
This sounds like "inexperienced people can't pick gear and apply skill to something they've never done" which applies to a lot of things.

I see how the current long range shooting trend applies, but I shouldn't go get the most expensive and complicated guitar possible and think I'll be able to sound like Hendrix when it really just makes it harder to learn chords in the first place. I guess what I am trying to say is that inexperienced people are going to have no idea what they are doing and little skill regardless of the gear they are packing, and gear is by far the smallest hurdle they're going to be overcoming in putting bullet into elk.

and if they think they can magically do that at long range without practice, then they are stupid, and there really is no fixing stupid or disabusing them of their notions. But there are still people who should and can take long range shots at big game.

BTW, in February, we were control shooting red deer at like 40 yards with a heavy barreled Remington 700 and a Swaro 5-25x...I don't even know. Hubble bolted to it anyway. Was rather ridiculous lol. But not that big a hinderance if you've actually hunted before.

I dunno who picked the gubmint gun on that one but they seem to be suffering from the malady you describe.
 
Longwalker said:
Perhaps being able to shoot at long range isn't the great advantage that many believe or have been sold by current firearms marketing. Is it possible other skills are more important?

We have had many guests hunting elk with us. It's fun to take out hunters who don't have as much opportunity or experience. Despite coaching them that they will do best if they stalk closer or wait for a good shot, some want to shoot at the first elk they see, regardless of distance. Some also handicap themselves by carrying rifles and scopes that in my opinion are better suited to long range target competition or shooting varmints than they are for hunting big game. Busy reticles with many hash marks disappear from view in the bush or get confusing in bad light. Twisty turrets are often set at the wrong distance and take time to adjust.

So as a result, they are not able to quickly get off a good, aimed shot from field positions when a typical opportunity presents itself. Technical advances in firearms and ammunition are wonderful. But at least some of hunting success is about stalking or interception skills, quick reflexes, and good judgement. Few hunters that I know actually practise getting an aimed shot off quickly and from improvised rests. Most just sit at a bench rest and dial their scopes and fiddle with their range finders and imagine shooting an animal way out there. And then because they can make good hits on targets at a range they assume they can do the same on game.

Elk are not targets. They move as triggers are squeezed, the light can be bad, the wind can blow bullets off course, unseen twigs can deflect a bullet, and any of that can result in the need for a follow up shot on a wounded animal. Can you quickly and accurately make another extreme long range shot on a trotting or running elk? Some can, but very few are actually that competent.
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Very good information and advice here, and congrats on a 30th elk, quite the accomplishment as I'm still trying to get my first one at home here in Saskatchewan!!!

I've shot antelope, deer, moose, elk and bear from 10m all the way to my longest shot last fall at 400m, from the open sage prairies of Wyoming to thick Northern Saskatchewan bush. The key element here is to be ready, whatever that means for YOU. Knowing your personal limits, practicing shooting in various stances and with different rests, some improvised, will ultimately make you a better hunter. Social media hunting influencers are making taking shots beyond 300m easy and I guarantee you they don't show the misses or wounded animals. We have to keep in mind that a lot of those guys dedicate a tremendous amount of time to practicing shooting and have a lot of field experience. A good and ethical hunter knows when to pass a shot and/or wait for the right opportunity.

While I've been fortunate to shoot a lot of animals, I have also passed on many "trophies" or opportunities because I wasn't ready to take an effective shot. When it comes to all of my shots taken over 150m, I can say that every time, I had a proper shooting position and rest, with adequate time to take a shot and without rushing. When it comes to the bull elk I shot last fall, there were three raghorns together and I watched them graze parallel to me for about 30-45 minutes before taking the shot, I had time to pick out which bull I wanted to shoot and waited for the right opportunity the terrain/animal offered. I had a proper rest, I was completely relaxed and gauged the wind/drop with an accurate range.

I've also taken rapid shots at animals at close range but I always try to wait for them to stop moving and every shot I take I have a good rest/position, improvised or not. I've taken a lot of newer hunters with me and always try to show them how to find a quick rest for possible shots. I can't stress enough the importance of situational awareness, that includes being aware of wildlife around you, but also your location/position and the possible improvised rests or positions you may have to take.

The very first thing I do when I get to a new spot is find how I can take a shot from there and the possible approaches game can take. Having a fancy bipod or shooting sticks won't help you much if you haven't figured out how you're going to use them when the time comes. Learning how to properly shoot off of fence lines/post, trees, backpacks, etc, is extremely valuable and will 100% make you a better hunter.

Carrying the right firearm/optic for the job is also a huge part of it. I've seen too many hunters cary around heavy rifles with massive optics that they are not comfortable with. They usually get tired quicker which makes taking a shot harder, or they can't seem to get a proper sight picture of the animal in their scope. I also believe the average hunter cannot adequately guess ranges without a range finder and I often hear 300 yard shots that were actually closer to 300 feet or vice versa.

Ultimately we owe it to the animals to do our best to take ethical shots. Even then, misses and wounding occurs and no matter how hard you try, chances are that you will take a bad shot that requires a follow-up, so always be ready.
 
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the 40,000' view is marketing has got to sell stuff, currently the prs scene and long range gear to do prs is a big one, lots of hero's, and some of them actually hunt and can put a bunch of what they learn into the field but very few, and even in that elrh world the majority of guys with most experience limit their hunting shots to half what they target shoot, 600 or less, and those extra few in positions to oversee both disciplines, train it, and then cull level volumes of animals taken will confirm lrh is a 0-600 yard game with most proficiency dropping off after 450 yards, moderate amount are consistent killers to 600 and just a few immortals are consistent killers from 600 onward, but you can't tell everyone that because there's a lot of chassis rigs to sell and ffp mil scopes lol...and gobs of ammo for 200 round matches lol, barrels to go with etc. so everyone needs to believe they are elrh 1000 yard killers...

we need to learn how to connect dots better, Longwalker said it too, from the elevated experience position, you'd be better off with 'k.i.s.s.' principle set up, because that's what hunting is, the fastest easiest way to meet Murphy is to go hunting without setting up and preparing for hunting lol, way better off to have super simple rigs with well practiced minimal methods for elevation correction only to actual likelihood of success ranges (outlined above) and set up and practice in the field, from field positions, drag your own gongs around, shoot off the pack, always use max point blank range zero for hunting, leave the computers at home, if you're going to carry elevation strategy make it a single rotation speed dial turret that locks on mpbrz (like a cds-zl) or dust cap covered turret nothing that can be easily bumped off zero, have the turret marked in yards for middle of your elevation/temp ranges so you range to 450 and dial to the 4.5...NO CHARTS!!!!!, capped or locking windage turret, or a basic reticle like lr duplex, know what each has is for and have verified it, ie; lr duplex I had installed in a 2.5-8 leupold worked out perfect for a .270 win, 250 yard zero, 350 hash 1, 450 has 2 and 550 where post thickened up, learn your system, develop it in the field, from your pack, basic rangefinder all you need, as you do all the work before the season, no computers/ballistic solvers required for the little bit of elevation data one actually needs for hunting, ANNNND...you need to be able to do this yourself, this isn't a team sport, good to hunt with buddy but you need to develop and learn to shoot your rig by yourself, not needing a babysitter over your shoulder telling you what to do lol...can't stress enough what good it will do for peoples big game hunting to focus on calling coyotes for a few winters, that will show you just what a rockstar you think you are and it's about the best thing you can do for hunting preparation once you've set your rifle up properly, you'll understand your ACTUAL field limitations completely once you know how far you can consistently kill coyotes lol, it won't be nearly as far as you hope or think, it will force you to get the right gear and set up for hunting and ditch the heavy target set ups

ah, that feels better ;)
 
I prefer to get right up close, but when I can't, that's where my 358 norma shines.
Only ever took shots out to 400 yards(423 actually) once, and it took a few tries. Thankfully a cow elk has a fairly large vital zone.
 
browning525 said:
I prefer to get right up close, but when I can't, that's where my 358 norma shines.
Only ever took shots out to 400 yards(423 actually) once, and it took a few tries. Thankfully a cow elk has a fairly large vital zone.
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At least you were prepared . Would u have tried it with a 6.5 let's say and if not , why ? and let's all assume he can shoot to 350-400 yards before the wolves come out ...lol
 
Joel said:
This sounds like "inexperienced people can't pick gear and apply skill to something they've never done" which applies to a lot of things.
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Guaranteed there’s alot of folks who jump on Caliber, Brands and whatever the latest and greatest bandwagon is. Fully buying into well it “can do this better than that” of the marketing hype.

Yet truthfully a lot of those same folks don’t even have their solid mechanics down. It is probably the major cause for most hit & miss or hit & wounded/not recovered game. Then they wonder why it went sideways even though they took that magical blue pill (Cal/Brand etc) over the red pill (mechanics/ethical & user competent range).

The field is a far cry from the Bench, Prone or PRS style of shooting where to some degree you a bit of extra time to set the shot up. One discipline doesn’t necessarily apply to to the other straight across the board.
 
ShrtRnd said:
Guaranteed there’s alot of folks who jump on Caliber, Brands and whatever the latest and greatest bandwagon is. Fully buying into well it “can do this better than that” of the marketing hype.

Yet truthfully a lot of those same folks don’t even have their solid mechanics down. It is probably the major cause for most hit & miss or hit & wounded/not recovered game. Then they wonder why it went sideways even though they took that magical blue pill (Cal/Brand etc) over the red pill (mechanics/ethical & user competent range).

The field is a far cry from the Bench, Prone or PRS style of shooting where to some degree you a bit of extra time to set the shot up. One discipline doesn’t necessarily apply to to the other straight across the board.
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I absolutely believe you man, just think if they're stupid enough to believe the above, they'd probably **** it up anyway regardless lol

Totally agreed on it not being a 1 to 1 crossover though, for sure.
 
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338 win mag or 6.5 manbun, lead or copper, shot in the ass or shoulder, bear or elk, 2000$ gun or savage axis or custom.

None of these questions matter if your hunting a clearcut
 
m1008 said:
338 win mag or 6.5 manbun, lead or copper, shot in the ass or shoulder, bear or elk, 2000$ gun or savage axis or custom.

None of these questions matter if your hunting a clearcut
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good one... finally
some competition !!!!
It was getting weak around here
 
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I think it depends on the elk! I have only shot 4. I have flattened them with 7rem mag, 300win mag and 340wby mag. All shots were in the vitals. The 340 was the least spectacular.. Elk can be tough if they dont want to die.
 
Just upset that a 140ish grain bullet at 21-2200 fps and 1450-1600 ft/lbs kills things just fine lol.

Its basically a 30-30 at 50 yards with a better bullet. If that doesn't get it done the problem ain't the rifle/cartridge.
 
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