if you ever intend to shoot outside of Canada in IPSC, then the .40 is a no brainer for the Division you've chosen. simply because of mag capacity. anyone running a single stack gun in P, S, or O Division is wasting perfectly good range time IMHO. sure you can do it in Canada, but why bother? .40 as mentioned is also cheaper to shoot, easier to get gear for, and more plentiful in stores. There really is no reason to shoot .45 (that said I own one gun in .45ACP and it hardly ever gets shot).
.40 over .45 ?
- Thread starter colt45gunner
- Start date
relliott
"You will be giving up significant time on your reloads though with a single stack, which I think is a larger issue than which caliber you choose."
Excellent point. Unless you go with Paras excellent P- 14 the reloads with the double stack are certainly faster for me and for most. I guess at the highest level, a point most of us are not capable of anyway, it might not make a difference but your point is well taken and often overlooked.
Take Care
Bob
"You will be giving up significant time on your reloads though with a single stack, which I think is a larger issue than which caliber you choose."
Excellent point. Unless you go with Paras excellent P- 14 the reloads with the double stack are certainly faster for me and for most. I guess at the highest level, a point most of us are not capable of anyway, it might not make a difference but your point is well taken and often overlooked.
Take Care
Bob
relliott is correct. most of you are too young/new to remember. Back when everyone shot open, Jerry Barnhart's 38sup was in the shop. He took his 45 to the Steel Challenge(very fast shooting sport). He won. Against all the super squad shooting their open supers etc, he won with an open 45. It's called practice. Reloads are not faster, just easier.
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Sadly, I am old enough to remember.
I switched over this year to 40 from 45.
for me the reasons were clear
-I needed a newer, better gun anyway.
-40's cheaper to feed by far.
-Why reinvent the wheel, everyone else uses it so why fight it.
Slavex has a great point about magazine capacity if shooting outside of Canada. Don't know if I'll ever do it but this alone was probably the reason for its success in competition.
for me the reasons were clear
-I needed a newer, better gun anyway.
-40's cheaper to feed by far.
-Why reinvent the wheel, everyone else uses it so why fight it.
Slavex has a great point about magazine capacity if shooting outside of Canada. Don't know if I'll ever do it but this alone was probably the reason for its success in competition.
I'm sorry, but I wouldn't buy a Para, ever. IF I had to buy a 1911 type gun, it'd be STI or SV. the video of Todd and the 1000 rounds in 10 minutes be damned. I've never seen a Para run right, out of the box. There are two times in an IPSC'ers life when they are happy. The day they get there Para, and then the day they sell it.
Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
I agree 100%, I have had 3 of them and nothing but trouble with all of them, my dad had one that required $800 in work by a well known pistol smith to get it working properly.
You want a race style gun, go STI, you want a good all around shooting gun, again STI or Kimber and Springfield.
Tanfoglio.
ok Bob, yours was the only one then. but did you get it new? did you do any work to it? or was any work done to it? Para's market share in IPSC is very very small. Todd is the only major shooter using one, and they pay his bills, so that makes a lot of sense. But very few other people shoot them, that has to speak towards something doesn't it?
Steve David
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Oshawa, Ontario
One thing I will give Para, I have talked with a few gun shops in different States, and all have told me that Para is one of the top 3 selling 1911's in the US, with Kimber and Springfield being the other 2. Again, personally I would not buy one, but IPSC does not account for the majority of sales and in the US to the 1911 market, the Para is very popular to the civilian market.
Slavex
"ok Bob, yours was the only one then. but did you get it new? did you do any work to it? or was any work done to it? Para's market share in IPSC is very very small. Todd is the only major shooter using one, and they pay his bills, so that makes a lot of sense. But very few other people shoot them, that has to speak towards something doesn't it?"
Hi
Well I bought it new from European Arms in Vancouver. Never had an ounce of trouble with it. Put over 5,000 rds through it and sold it to my son who has another 2,000 through it. Just goes bang everytime you pull the trigger. My SSP has been flawless with no work done on it. Bought it new.
IPSC in Canada, while being very popular, is still a very small market in the greater scheme of things. YOu also well know. most shooters who enter the competitive sports like IPSC or IDPA tend to run to what is the flavour of the day. CZ SPO-1 comes to mind. Beretta was all the rage sometime ago for some. The S&W M&P is gathering quite a following now in IDPA and I suspect you will see the guns in IPSC PRoduction.
Whether we like it or not the US is such a huge market for both civilian, LEO and military/para military sales and I suspect that is what Para concentrates on.
Colt Industres lists the Para on their website. Their primary market is Military sales and they need a quality double stack. They chose Para.
Para makes a quality product and it sells well at it's price point. If you want a quality built 1911 then you ought to take a look at Para along with the rest but to come out ans say all their guns don't work period is really not an informed comment.
I own guns from Para, STI, S&W, Norinco, Tanfoglio and Berretta. They all shoot great. To date I have had only issues with:
STI (My trojan would not lock back after the last round - issue was firstly the gun was built with a poorly fitted slide stop and the mags that came with the gun had issues). Both were solved with help from the factory - excellent service.
CZ (Since sold) - the right hand slide stop lever broke after a zillion rounds.
Norinco - barrel link broke after 700 rds. Sent it to Dlask for a makeover. Fully custom gun now.
Beretta: Own a Stampede. All the screws needed to be loc tighted down. Lost a screw holding the ejector rod. Finally bought one off of Brownells. Service up here is awhful from my limited experience. Still waiting for a screw from their distributer (Two years).
Would I recommend the STI, CZ or NOrinco. You bet! All three are great guns at their price point and are worthy of any shooters consideration. Based on the serice level from the Canadian Disributer I won't buy another Beretta. Son had a similar experience with Taurus. The latter doesn't pretend to provide service for their guns or at least didn't when he was looking for a new hammer for his revolver. The original one broke in two,
Take Care
Bob
"ok Bob, yours was the only one then. but did you get it new? did you do any work to it? or was any work done to it? Para's market share in IPSC is very very small. Todd is the only major shooter using one, and they pay his bills, so that makes a lot of sense. But very few other people shoot them, that has to speak towards something doesn't it?"
Hi
Well I bought it new from European Arms in Vancouver. Never had an ounce of trouble with it. Put over 5,000 rds through it and sold it to my son who has another 2,000 through it. Just goes bang everytime you pull the trigger. My SSP has been flawless with no work done on it. Bought it new.
IPSC in Canada, while being very popular, is still a very small market in the greater scheme of things. YOu also well know. most shooters who enter the competitive sports like IPSC or IDPA tend to run to what is the flavour of the day. CZ SPO-1 comes to mind. Beretta was all the rage sometime ago for some. The S&W M&P is gathering quite a following now in IDPA and I suspect you will see the guns in IPSC PRoduction.
Whether we like it or not the US is such a huge market for both civilian, LEO and military/para military sales and I suspect that is what Para concentrates on.
Colt Industres lists the Para on their website. Their primary market is Military sales and they need a quality double stack. They chose Para.
Para makes a quality product and it sells well at it's price point. If you want a quality built 1911 then you ought to take a look at Para along with the rest but to come out ans say all their guns don't work period is really not an informed comment.
I own guns from Para, STI, S&W, Norinco, Tanfoglio and Berretta. They all shoot great. To date I have had only issues with:
STI (My trojan would not lock back after the last round - issue was firstly the gun was built with a poorly fitted slide stop and the mags that came with the gun had issues). Both were solved with help from the factory - excellent service.
CZ (Since sold) - the right hand slide stop lever broke after a zillion rounds.
Norinco - barrel link broke after 700 rds. Sent it to Dlask for a makeover. Fully custom gun now.
Beretta: Own a Stampede. All the screws needed to be loc tighted down. Lost a screw holding the ejector rod. Finally bought one off of Brownells. Service up here is awhful from my limited experience. Still waiting for a screw from their distributer (Two years).
Would I recommend the STI, CZ or NOrinco. You bet! All three are great guns at their price point and are worthy of any shooters consideration. Based on the serice level from the Canadian Disributer I won't buy another Beretta. Son had a similar experience with Taurus. The latter doesn't pretend to provide service for their guns or at least didn't when he was looking for a new hammer for his revolver. The original one broke in two,
Take Care
Bob
Ok, I'll weigh in. I don't want to slag any particular format, so I'll just give my personal experience with Paras.
Way back when dinosaurs walked the Earth I used to shoot Paras and had several of them. I got them all to run fine. Some were easier to set up than others, but they all ran. The following is based on a need for a gun that will shoot between 20- 40,000 rounds per year. It's not too hard to wring 5K out of a box stock gun without problems, but high round counts tend to test a design and its components pretty well, as I found out the hard way.
Frames: Basically ok, though needed a fair bit of re-contouring to fit my lady-like hands. Same with the grip panels. I always thought they felt like fence posts and left too many holes in the gun/grip interface for my taste. But I like a really good skin weld on a gun. Better contour = less need to over-grip the gun - less tension, which is what you want when shooting fast.
Slides: Soft-ish but basically ok. Usually replaced them with Caspians bar stocks if replacing the barrel anyway. Replaced rear sight with Bo-mars at the same time.
Extractors were junk. They MIGHT last 2K rounds or even as many as 10 depending on the load (high pressure loads not so much). Replaced with higher end stuff. Fixed a bunch for other folks too, and when they came out of the gun the para units were all like butter. Soft, and couldn't be tuned.
Fire control: Junk. Couldn't do a decent trigger on one of those goofy Para sear/hammer combos to save my life. Replaced with EGW or equivalent. Note that the pin holes in every single Para I ever worked on were aligned slightly differently. So I had to change my jig for each one to find that magic angle. Always ditch the series 80 crap and put in a frame shim.
Trigger and stirrup: Actually ok if you drill and tap for an over-travel screw. I also drilled and tapped my frames for a take-up screw; a very handy modification. A little on the massive side, but can be reshaped to taste or length(plastic) and lightened without too much trouble.
Beaver tail. I don't know about the newer ones...I think they've switched to Browns....but the older stock units sat too low. Replaced with Browns for higher grip.
Safeties. Nope, too narrow and a rounded surface that the thumb wants to slip off of. Replaced with Browns or Swensons for thumb shield.
Rear sight ok though more fragile than Bo-mars. Having said that, I've had at least 3 Bo-mars nuke on me so......
Front sight: Replaced with dovetail unit, either FO or blade. Newer Paras may have these now (Dawson's?).
Barrels: Ok if you aren't using high pressure loads. I was using Clays, and the stock Para barrels are a little on the "over throated" side" and tended to not like Clays. At all, so anyone out there thinking of trying it, don't.
To sum up:
If I was considering a Para for hard use I would take it to a smith have it properly fitted with high end racing parts. Then I think I would be able to count on it in a match. If all I'm looking for is a few thousand rounds per year it's probably fine as is. I think the newer "Todd" models have a lot of what the smiths do already done including a Dawson mag well and decent fire control parts. That would be a Para worth considering. Note that a lot of shooting on these guns WILL shoot them loose. They are castings and not all that hard. That's fixable mind you; just costs money.
Note also that people like me who use their stuff a lot generally tend to become pretty much self sufficient at trouble-shooting problems and fixing most of them before they become catastrophic. If you are in that category, ANY gun you choose will require a fair bit more maintenances than most. It's just the nature of the beast.
Way back when dinosaurs walked the Earth I used to shoot Paras and had several of them. I got them all to run fine. Some were easier to set up than others, but they all ran. The following is based on a need for a gun that will shoot between 20- 40,000 rounds per year. It's not too hard to wring 5K out of a box stock gun without problems, but high round counts tend to test a design and its components pretty well, as I found out the hard way.
Frames: Basically ok, though needed a fair bit of re-contouring to fit my lady-like hands. Same with the grip panels. I always thought they felt like fence posts and left too many holes in the gun/grip interface for my taste. But I like a really good skin weld on a gun. Better contour = less need to over-grip the gun - less tension, which is what you want when shooting fast.
Slides: Soft-ish but basically ok. Usually replaced them with Caspians bar stocks if replacing the barrel anyway. Replaced rear sight with Bo-mars at the same time.
Extractors were junk. They MIGHT last 2K rounds or even as many as 10 depending on the load (high pressure loads not so much). Replaced with higher end stuff. Fixed a bunch for other folks too, and when they came out of the gun the para units were all like butter. Soft, and couldn't be tuned.
Fire control: Junk. Couldn't do a decent trigger on one of those goofy Para sear/hammer combos to save my life. Replaced with EGW or equivalent. Note that the pin holes in every single Para I ever worked on were aligned slightly differently. So I had to change my jig for each one to find that magic angle. Always ditch the series 80 crap and put in a frame shim.
Trigger and stirrup: Actually ok if you drill and tap for an over-travel screw. I also drilled and tapped my frames for a take-up screw; a very handy modification. A little on the massive side, but can be reshaped to taste or length(plastic) and lightened without too much trouble.
Beaver tail. I don't know about the newer ones...I think they've switched to Browns....but the older stock units sat too low. Replaced with Browns for higher grip.
Safeties. Nope, too narrow and a rounded surface that the thumb wants to slip off of. Replaced with Browns or Swensons for thumb shield.
Rear sight ok though more fragile than Bo-mars. Having said that, I've had at least 3 Bo-mars nuke on me so......
Front sight: Replaced with dovetail unit, either FO or blade. Newer Paras may have these now (Dawson's?).
Barrels: Ok if you aren't using high pressure loads. I was using Clays, and the stock Para barrels are a little on the "over throated" side" and tended to not like Clays. At all, so anyone out there thinking of trying it, don't.
To sum up:
If I was considering a Para for hard use I would take it to a smith have it properly fitted with high end racing parts. Then I think I would be able to count on it in a match. If all I'm looking for is a few thousand rounds per year it's probably fine as is. I think the newer "Todd" models have a lot of what the smiths do already done including a Dawson mag well and decent fire control parts. That would be a Para worth considering. Note that a lot of shooting on these guns WILL shoot them loose. They are castings and not all that hard. That's fixable mind you; just costs money.
Note also that people like me who use their stuff a lot generally tend to become pretty much self sufficient at trouble-shooting problems and fixing most of them before they become catastrophic. If you are in that category, ANY gun you choose will require a fair bit more maintenances than most. It's just the nature of the beast.
