Are Canadian Street Cops Outgunned? The Debate over Police Handguns in the 1990s

[CV32]

“Are Canadian Street Cops Outgunned?”: The Debate over Police Handguns in the 1990s

“Are Canadian Street Cops Outgunned?”: The Debate over Police Handguns in the 1990s
Published online by Cambridge University Press: 01 August 2023
R. Blake Brown and Rudy Bartlett

Abstract

This article offers the first scholarly analysis of the shift from revolvers to semi-automatic handguns in Canada to contribute to our knowledge of police militarization. In the 1990s, most Canadian police handed in their venerable service revolvers and received modern semi-automatic pistols. Advocates of new weapons pointed to relatively rare but high-profile shootings of police to show the dangers of law enforcement work and the need to have better firearms. The gun industry encouraged the rearming of police through an aggressive marketing campaign emphasizing that modern police forces required more advanced weapons and the military lineage of their products. The transition to semi-automatic handguns sometimes proved controversial, as human rights advocates believed the new handguns could result in excessive use of force. Despite this concern, most police were rearmed by the beginning of the twenty-first century.

Too long to post in its entirety.

The kind of article that makes you feel dumber for having read it.

From one of the firearms community's favourite college antis ... Blake Brown.

 

[slarsen47]

Naw.............."not out gunned".

But they are "out lawyerd".

Revolving door system.

Keeps the customers coming in the door and with that the big fees courtesy of you and me.

 

[Repro77]

I will always remember premier Bob Rae (NDP) saying when Toronto Police wanted semi autos that he "didn't want to get into an arms race with criminals" (or something to that effect). I still laugh about it from time to time.

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

If semi-autos can replaced revolvers, the same logic was applied to shotguns with patrol carbines.

 

[Boltgun]

having been part of the transition in the early 90's to semi's and then again from shotguns to rifles, his report has a lot of info in it but is severely slanted. especially his conclusion

Boltgun

 

[Quiet]

"advanced weapons" - only 80 years behind the times! Semi auto pistols were already standard military sidearms for most industrialized countries by WW1.

 

[madtrapper143]

I was on the job during those years in Ontario. The adaption of pistols was the result of a Health and Safety complaint/award. The NDP government of the day was ordered to allow for the transition to pistols from revolvers. It drove them crazy and as a last kick at the police they created legislation making a "truncated cone of non expanding type bullet for use in Ontario". The bullets of course were dangerous with the possibility of over penetration. They felt that expanding bullets "offered too much chance of killing those hit with such a bullet". The arguments against were as absurd as any we hear today involving government and firearms. When the Conservatives were elected to oust the NDP hollow point expanding bullets became the norm. Just some insight from someone who was "there". The old .38 special revolvers were nice guns but they had become obsolete for the job being asked of them.

Darryl

 

[chillyrabbit]

"advanced weapons" - only 80 years behind the times! Semi auto pistols were already standard military sidearms for most industrialized countries by WW1.

For militaries yes but up until the 70-80's police departments resisted adopting semi auto pistols. Mostly because the most common one in the US at the time was the 1911, which required you to carry it cocked and locked.

That carry style was seen as dangerous, since 95% of police officers never fire their gun but spend 8-10 hours a day carrying a gun seen too easy to shoot, and have accidental/negligent discharges.

A CGN poster posted an interesting link previously no a book studying the transition from revolvers to semi autos.

EDIT: spelling fixes

 

[Paul_1982]

The most prominent episode employed by advocates of arming police with semi-automatic handguns was the death of Sudbury Constable Joseph MacDonald, who died after emptying his revolver in a gunfight with two men in 1993. Clinton Suzack, armed with a semi-automatic handgun, reportedly shot and killed MacDonald while he reloaded.

/end article.

What a dummy.

 

[drywar]

Remember the LAPD in North Hollywood back in early 1997, they already had some semi pistols along with many .38 revolvers.

 

[highlander]

For militaries yes but up until the 70-80's police departments resisted adopting semi auto pistols. Mostly because the most common one in the US at the time was the 1911, which required you to carry it cooked and locked.

That carry style was seen as dangerous, since 95% of police officers never fire their gun but spend 8-10 hours a day carrying a gun seen too easy to shoot.

A CGN poster posted an interesting link previously no a book studying the transition from revolvers to semi autos.

Where di you come up with this?

 

[hsatimmy]

If his vision was more skewed he'd see in only the primary colors.

 

[chillyrabbit]

Where di you come up with this?

are you asking about the link, or about the resistance to adopting semi-autos?

pg 167

In my opinion based on several years of combat pistol competition, the .45 government automatic is the best combat handgun in the world, but it has one major drawback which makes it unacceptable for police service, that being the safety factor. If you carry it cocked and locked with a round in the chamber it is as fast as any revolver on the draw and faster in its rate of fire at close range. The problem comes in having a relatively inexperienced shooter handling a cocked automatic pistol. I’m sure the accidental discharge rate would rise rapidly (as might injuries). The services have had lots of trouble with accidental discharges, and they don't allow their men to carry a round in the chamber.

The book itself goes over some other measures too why police departments didn't switch over.

 

[dan belisle]

are you asking about the link, or about the resistance to adopting semi-autos?

pg 167



The book itself goes over some other measures too why police departments didn't switch over.

Yes, and generals resisted repeating rifles because they knew their soldiers would just waste ammo. Yet, here we are. - dan

 

[johnl]

I’m curious about the current recruitment prerequisites (standards) for the average beat cop compared to the standards of day for the ones nearing retirement.

 

[FLHTCUI]

Well, the BC Conservation Officers are going to transition away from .40 cal to 9mm so as to increase mag capacity .
More bullets down range to suppress the threat .
A solution to a problem they have yet to deal with ?

 

[geologist]

I will always remember premier Bob Rae (NDP) saying when Toronto Police wanted semi autos that he "didn't want to get into an arms race with criminals" (or something to that effect). I still laugh about it from time to time.

Rae is the commie idiot who also promised to spend his way out of a recession when he was Premier of Morontario.

It failed miserably of course and he was voted out.

 

[snubbie]

The cops should have semi autos for sure and most should carry a pcc in the cruiser, while those in remote areas should have and AR in the trunk,,,,,, However this is totally useless as most officers rarely train with their weapons and the requal process is a joke.... I carried for almost 30ys,,, worked for an armoured car outfit. I bought a duplicate gun and holster setup like I had at work and practice at my own club several times a month when I could. I shot ipsc matches using this rig,, got laughed at and told I was hindering my self but the point was becoming as proficient as possible.

Our cops need to be properly armed but they also need to be trained properly and continuously. Even being made to go to the police range and shoot 100 rounds a month makes one hell of a difference over someone who just shoots at his requal.

 

[Boltgun]

I was on the job during those years in Ontario. The adaption of pistols was the result of a Health and Safety complaint/award. The NDP government of the day was ordered to allow for the transition to pistols from revolvers. It drove them crazy and as a last kick at the police they created legislation making a "truncated cone of non expanding type bullet for use in Ontario". The bullets of course were dangerous with the possibility of over penetration. They felt that expanding bullets "offered too much chance of killing those hit with such a bullet". The arguments against were as absurd as any we hear today involving government and firearms. When the Conservatives were elected to oust the NDP hollow point expanding bullets became the norm. Just some insight from someone who was "there". The old .38 special revolvers were nice guns but they had become obsolete for the job being asked of them.

Darryl

I had a small part in the MOL submission on hollow points. It was the first time in Ontario history that the OACP/PAO/SOA banded together to support the swap from TCM to JHP.

 

[Boltgun]

I’m curious about the current recruitment prerequisites (standards) for the average beat cop compared to the standards of day for the ones nearing retirement.

on paper the stds are very similar....in practice they are far from it. ie: no university needed now because of Ford saying so....it wasn't required anyways....but it was often mandatory if the application was to go forward.