Are Canadian Street Cops Outgunned? The Debate over Police Handguns in the 1990s

[cement head]

Well, the BC Conservation Officers are going to transition away from .40 cal to 9mm so as to increase mag capacity .
More bullets down range to suppress the threat .
A solution to a problem they have yet to deal with ?

I spoke to a retired law enforcement officer ta few months ago and they are going to 9mm because the ammo is cheaper . plus it's easier to shoot a 9mm than a 40 . I'd say 40 is a better round than 9mm. 9mm will work but if I had a large dog trying to make me into an afternoon snack I'd rather have a 40 than a 9. I remember back in the day the New York police were armed with 38 revolvers and sawed off Savage Stevens 12 gauge double barrel shotguns . so I red in an article . they were trained to use them properly and an article said they faired very well due to the training . then they went to a semi pistol .

I don't think most police should have a patrol carbine . the bullet carries too far . i think they would be better served with a pump shotgun . Sergeants and others with many years of experience who are trigger savvy and have proven so could be issued a carbine . if they wish . how many criminals have AR rifles ?? maybe in a drug raid but not on patrol .

 

[dan belisle]

I spoke to a retired law enforcement officer ta few months ago and they are going to 9mm because the ammo is cheaper . plus it's easier to shoot a 9mm than a 40 . I'd say 40 is a better round than 9mm. 9mm will work but if I had a large dog trying to make me into an afternoon snack I'd rather have a 40 than a 9. I remember back in the day the New York police were armed with 38 revolvers and sawed off Savage Stevens 12 gauge double barrel shotguns . so I red in an article . they were trained to use them properly and an article said they faired very well due to the training . then they went to a semi pistol .

I don't think most police should have a patrol carbine . the bullet carries too far . i think they would be better served with a pump shotgun . Sergeants and others with many years of experience who are trigger savvy and have proven so could be issued a carbine . if they wish . how many criminals have AR rifles ?? maybe in a drug raid but not on patrol .

Was a RO when the RCMP rented our local indoor range for transition training to semi's. Rather frightening. - dan

 

[bross]

Out gunned? Yes. Particularly due to the decades long acquisition process. Evidence: the RCMP service pistol. Rechargeable rail guns will be in vogue when they get a new 9mm.

 

[Boltgun]

I spoke to a retired law enforcement officer ta few months ago and they are going to 9mm because the ammo is cheaper . plus it's easier to shoot a 9mm than a 40 . I'd say 40 is a better round than 9mm. 9mm will work but if I had a large dog trying to make me into an afternoon snack I'd rather have a 40 than a 9. I remember back in the day the New York police were armed with 38 revolvers and sawed off Savage Stevens 12 gauge double barrel shotguns . so I red in an article . they were trained to use them properly and an article said they faired very well due to the training . then they went to a semi pistol .

I don't think most police should have a patrol carbine . the bullet carries too far . i think they would be better served with a pump shotgun . Sergeants and others with many years of experience who are trigger savvy and have proven so could be issued a carbine . if they wish . how many criminals have AR rifles ?? maybe in a drug raid but not on patrol .

most agencies are converting to 9mm for these reasons:

1 - when comparing terminal performance of modern JHP and better yet barrier blind ammo, 9mm penetrates as deep as 40 S&W and 40 will give you about .05-.10 wider frontal area of expanded ammo. so no much "extra" wound incapacitation ability. When stuck with FMJ, the rule of wider is better is still valid.
2 - 9mm is easier to shoot than 40S&W
3 - the life of 9mm guns is better than 40S&W guns - especially when aluminum frames are part of the equation
4 - 9mm is cheaper - in the order of 18-22% cheaper in fleet volumes. When I did pricing for my agency - 1600 sworn - the savings in one year's budget of ammo was enough for 46 free 9mm pistols with the savings.
5 - 9mm carries more rounds. not a huge issue but it is a slight benefit
6 - 9mm is slightly more available than 40S&W - both require ongoing advanced ordering when talking fleet volumes though.

It's the one time - very rare - that Officer Safety/bean counter savviness actually match.

In the realm of wound trauma incapacitation - Dr Fackler was stymied when there was a push to adopt 223/556 vs 12 ga. He was of the opinion that LE had the best wounding tool already available - the 12GA. the issue with the 12ga is limited distances/not 100% against body armour/need upgrading to be viable today (sighting/lighting/adjustable stocks) and they still have heavy recoil. the demographic of officers in the 40's-80's is different to the ones today - rifle is a better fit - period. With regards to having AR's on patrol - AR's are a multipurpose rifle. they don't come across many AR style rifles on patrol, they do come across all kinds of other rifles though. having a rifle to match a rifle is not possible. LE requires a side arm and long gun.

Boltgun

 

[Boltgun]

Was a RO when the RCMP rented our local indoor range for transition training to semi's. Rather frightening. - dan

when I was teaching it (not RCMP) it was frightening sometimes! especially when the older officers had a hard time retraining using thumbs forward vs support side thumb going over the strong side hand web....lots of blood shed - LOL! I always use the analogy of the doctor who uses a scalpel once per year.....but the will (time/staffing/budget) is not there to increase training frequency.

 

[rajczak_kashka]

I spoke to a retired law enforcement officer ta few months ago and they are going to 9mm because the ammo is cheaper . plus it's easier to shoot a 9mm than a 40 . I'd say 40 is a better round than 9mm. 9mm will work but if I had a large dog trying to make me into an afternoon snack I'd rather have a 40 than a 9. I remember back in the day the New York police were armed with 38 revolvers and sawed off Savage Stevens 12 gauge double barrel shotguns . so I red in an article . they were trained to use them properly and an article said they faired very well due to the training . then they went to a semi pistol .

I don't think most police should have a patrol carbine . the bullet carries too far . i think they would be better served with a pump shotgun . Sergeants and others with many years of experience who are trigger savvy and have proven so could be issued a carbine . if they wish . how many criminals have AR rifles ?? maybe in a drug raid but not on patrol .

9mm is the choice for police as it is not overly powerful and in most cases the bullet is contained within the target as well as almost all energy being discharged within that target. No pass through equals no collateral damage, ie civilian death or injury. Hollow point and frangible ammo are also used and available.In a life or death situation the person behind the trigger will determine the success of that weapon more so than the type of weapon itself. Training increases efficiencies.
As for the patrol carbine (assault style weapon when in the hands of civilians) they are a must for law enforcement. Accuracy and power are needed in modern day law enforcement. Shotguns have mostly been relegated to ERT for door breaching (and rural policing for wildlife) as in the hands of regular patrol officers with minimal training can be detrimental to public safety due to scatter of projectiles in the case of buckshot or over penetration with slugs. Frangible and hollow points are available to law enforcement for their carbines as well as their 9mm service pistols. Specialized and highly trained law enforcement such as ERT use several higher powered weapons as challenges they face are usually more heavily armed and sometimes armoured. I believe that the 9mm and 5.56 service weapons are more than adequate to deal with the day to threats facing regular patrol officers in the field. Their training and proficiency on these is paramount for their success with them and most importantly the public’s safety. And no, service carbines do not need the ability to fire full auto.

 

[Jon.]

Quick response to being outgunned. We at my detachment years ago kept our own AR15's and bought and unpinned magazines to leave at the office because we didn't have any comparable firearm available. To this day I'm better armed at home than my detachment is. I'm willing to bet half the people on this site are better armed than your typical rural police station.

Hell, my dad carried a pump 30-30 in his highway patrol car waaay back in the day, as he found the shotgun inadequate.

 

[CLW .45]

After they retire they are just as well off as the rest of us.......lol

After retirement, they are no longer cops and the question of being outgunned does not apply.

While employed as armed law enforcement officers the efficacy of their armament is of far less concern than the situation in which your unarmed loved ones find themselves, when attacked with lethal intent.

 

[Snowy Owl]

While employed as armed law enforcement officers the efficacy of their armament is of far less concern than the situation in which your unarmed loved ones find themselves, when attacked with lethal intent.

I don't know how you can be bold enough and daring enough to make such an assertion on the CGN. But I wholeheartedly agree with you - all the way.