Good old Blake Brown, I saw a post recently but has been deleted where his information was posted publicly. His home address, also the the campground they run/own in Five Islands, his wife/partner Jennifer Llewellyn you can google her up law prof of Dalhousie big time into restorative justice, kind of funny Blake can make us all out to be criminals and Jennifer can get us all off with no punishment! Hi Blake if you are reading this, go F yourself.
Are Canadian Street Cops Outgunned? The Debate over Police Handguns in the 1990s
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Good old Blake Brown, I saw a post recently but has been deleted where his information was posted publicly. His home address, also the the campground they run/own in Five Islands, his wife/partner Jennifer Llewellyn you can google her up law prof of Dalhousie big time into restorative justice, kind of funny Blake can make us all out to be criminals and Jennifer can get us all off with no punishment! Hi Blake if you are reading this, go F yourself.
I never said that they have used them, I said they CAN use them.
Mind you, I seem to recall an incident or two in the US.
My jurisdiction has at least 1 armoured vehicle since the 1990's, where the justification for C68 was made by " cops being outgunned" by hysterical media, anti gun groups, and some police themselves (who welcome the bigger acquisition budgets).
The armoured vehicle has never been shot at, nor have Edmonton Police have engaged with full auto uzi toting criminals EVER.
I'm all for equipping police, but dont use it as justification to ban, seize or confiscate legally acquired private property.
Besides, if an event described above happens, (I sure hope not) it would show the abject failure of current laws, and highlight the fact that some people/orgs work outside the law anyways, no matter what.
Yeah and his wife is just as ugly.
How were the bad guys armed in Saanich last year at the bank? If the first 6 street guys had shown up at scene with their handguns and Crown Vics only, how would that have turned out?
Aren't they all vested, and have ar's in those cars now? - dan
patrol doesn't wear hard armour all the time - if they have it at all - soft body armour will not stop rifle rounds. if they have hard armour AND the luxury of time to stop and throw the plates on then it may help.
Not all guys/cars have ARs and the current body armour isn't rated for 7.62X39 and like with the mumpty in NB, didn't he have a N305?. Usually most "pistol" calibres are stopped, but even then, 7.62X25 Tok rounds are hell on wheels.
It's impossible anyway to actually be "prepared" for every scenario. If you get to know a guy, ask him/her if you can lift up the duty belt with all the gear.... Some of the newer, in shape young guys/gals, with a waist the size of my thigh, have run out of real estate on the belt for any more equipment. Add an external vest and holy crapolla, I'm surprised if anyone goes to the ground, they're going to be like a turtle and never get up.
I still think burn it with fire is the way to go.
Thx for the explanation. Yes, fire does sound useful. - dan
Yes, but you said yourself that they cant be prepared for everything. It was just a fluke that the swat team happened to be there.!
In the overwhelming majority of cases, and by the time the resources are deployed everythjng is over. Excetions being a siege/OKA type situation.
Lets make equipping patrol cops a priority, since they arethe ones having to deal with most stuff.
Btw, are standard patrol cars armoured in some ways?
Is it not the protocol in most agencies to wear body armor rated to stop a round from their duty sidearm?
Plates are too bulky to wear, especially in a vehicle for normal patrol officers.
yes, Plates are making their way into agencies inventories, but they are not as widespread as some think.
100% that is why most tactical teams have moved away from them. They have a place, but rifle calibres perform better. In the case of the 223, they also have less propensity to over penetrate compared to a 9mm/40S&W coming out of a PCC. Any agency that is using PCC's is seriously doing a disservice to their members and the public.
Boltgun
9mm/40 penetrate more than a 223? I find that doesn't match up with my own observations. - dan
https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/#:~:text=5%3A55%20AM-,1999%2DVol4No1.pdf,-PDF%20Document
https://shsu-ir.tdl.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.11875/1135/0754.pdf?
https://dokumen.tips/documents/wound-ballistics-2013-gary-roberts.html?page=1
Unfortunately the discussion hasn't come up for some time. So many of the articles and sources that i referred too years ago are now dead links or expired urls. there was an article in one of the large LE magazines that detailed it and when I researched it it was supported at the the time. Recognize that ammunition development has changed significantly in recent years at the time it was when the MP-5 reigned as the primary gun for tactical teams and the 223/556 was new to the tactical team arena. Ammo at that time would penetrate (9mm147GR JHP) about 18 inch from an MP-5 and (223/556 - 55-62 gr JSP)10-12 inch from an AR. ammo manufacturers who seek LE adoption serious redeveloped their 223/556 loads to perform as best as possible in the FBI ammunition test protocol.
from a personal perspective I have been to about 5 wound ballistics gel shoots, spoken with Dr Fackler and Dr GK Roberts and garnered much of my information from them. The sad part is that the IWBA Wound Ballistics Review died when Fackler retired. and it is hard to find a digital copy of all the reviews done. In the one link - 2017'ish - I requested access to the archived IWBA reviews. If I get access, I will somehow post them here. The knowledge transfer is invaluable.
Anyways, all that to say, that's why the MP-5 took a major backseat to the AR platform in the late 90's-early 2000's.
Boltgun
ETA - I stand corrected! here is the IWBA journals
https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/
ANOTHER ETA - https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/#:~:text=5%3A54%20AM-,1998%2DVol3No4.pdf,-PDF%20Document
check out DocGKR's article on 12/223. He shows some penetration profiles on 12/40/9/223 in bare and wallboard tests. Most 223 LE ammo at that time frame was JSP not FMJ. Also remember to take into account the importance of performance through the FBI tests. that's where the 9mm penetrates more than 223 across the board.
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