Are Canadian Street Cops Outgunned? The Debate over Police Handguns in the 1990s

Boltgun said:
https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/#:~:text=5%3A55%20AM-,1999%2DVol4No1.pdf,-PDF%20Document

https://shsu-ir.tdl.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.11875/1135/0754.pdf?

https://dokumen.tips/documents/wound-ballistics-2013-gary-roberts.html?page=1


Unfortunately the discussion hasn't come up for some time. So many of the articles and sources that i referred too years ago are now dead links or expired urls. there was an article in one of the large LE magazines that detailed it and when I researched it it was supported at the the time. Recognize that ammunition development has changed significantly in recent years at the time it was when the MP-5 reigned as the primary gun for tactical teams and the 223/556 was new to the tactical team arena. Ammo at that time would penetrate (9mm147GR JHP) about 18 inch from an MP-5 and (223/556 - 55-62 gr JSP)10-12 inch from an AR. ammo manufacturers who seek LE adoption serious redeveloped their 223/556 loads to perform as best as possible in the FBI ammunition test protocol.

from a personal perspective I have been to about 5 wound ballistics gel shoots, spoken with Dr Fackler and Dr GK Roberts and garnered much of my information from them. The sad part is that the IWBA Wound Ballistics Review died when Fackler retired. and it is hard to find a digital copy of all the reviews done. In the one link - 2017'ish - I requested access to the archived IWBA reviews. If I get access, I will somehow post them here. The knowledge transfer is invaluable.

Anyways, all that to say, that's why the MP-5 took a major backseat to the AR platform in the late 90's-early 2000's.

Boltgun

ETA - I stand corrected! here is the IWBA journals

https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/

ANOTHER ETA - https://thinlineweapons.com/IWBA/#:~:text=5%3A54%20AM-,1998%2DVol3No4.pdf,-PDF%20Document

check out DocGKR's article on 12/223. He shows some penetration profiles on 12/40/9/223 in bare and wallboard tests. Most 223 LE ammo at that time frame was JSP not FMJ. Also remember to take into account the importance of performance through the FBI tests. that's where the 9mm penetrates more than 223 across the board.
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Interesting. - dan
 
rajczak_kashka said:
Frangible ammo designed to not penetrate target (ie criminal). All energy and component released into and contained within the target. Very devastating and safer as far as collateral damage.
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Frang is generally used during training phase to minimize the odds of the projectile ricochet on harder targets. Odds are the operational ammunition used by the le agencies are some sort of hollow point projectiles. Which as you said also dump as much if not all energy into target reducing chances of overpen.

dan belisle said:
And these bullets aren't available in 9mm/40? - dan
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Yes they are and probably used on training and hollow points probably used when they go out to work.
 
Boltgun said:
yes, Plates are making their way into agencies inventories, but they are not as widespread as some think.
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It was after the NB shooting that they woke up and started to give them higher rated armor. I know talking to my buddy who works in a smaller town NS police force, that they are geared up well.
 
OkayShooter said:
It was after the NB shooting that they woke up and started to give them higher rated armor. I know talking to my buddy who works in a smaller town NS police force, that they are geared up well.
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Hard body armour rides in the trunk and are worked when the situation dictates it.
 
Street gangs need to be declared domestic terrorist groups and be treated as any other terrorist group hunted down and deleted from existence

Typical street officers should not be dealing with criminals of this level and it should be SWAT and JTF2 conducting raids on these people
 
Ravage said:
Street gangs need to be declared domestic terrorist groups and be treated as any other terrorist group hunted down and deleted from existence

Typical street officers should not be dealing with criminals of this level and it should be SWAT and JTF2 conducting raids on these people
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Justice system goes lite on them. Revolving door my cop buddy says. All they do I'd take their guns away from them and tell them not to have another. Them get arrested in a few months with another gun, and same ####.
 
rajczak_kashka said:
Frangible ammo designed to not penetrate target (ie criminal). All energy and component released into and contained within the target. Very devastating and safer as far as collateral damage.
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frangible rounds are only good for one thing - in terms of wound ballistics/terminal performance - a head shot - in open air. if there are ANY barriers, it is not suitable, if you are looking for penetration to the vital structures in the upper thoracic cavity, they are not suitable. To prove a point, how many hunting rounds are made with frangible projectiles? NONE. Barrier blind expanding ammo is the gold standard for ammunition used where wound trauma incapacitation is needed, period.
 
Ravage said:
Street gangs need to be declared domestic terrorist groups and be treated as any other terrorist group hunted down and deleted from existence

Typical street officers should not be dealing with criminals of this level and it should be SWAT and JTF2 conducting raids on these people
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how many threads have we seen about police use of force? what is the demographic makeup of these gangs? this would end up becoming an all out race/poverty war based on these eliminations. we already have a process that works, the problem is it fails to deal with the end result in bail, sentencing and incarceration. Put them on trial, when convicted then put them in jail - FOREVER. the problem is society isn't willing to do that.
 
Boltgun said:
how many threads have we seen about police use of force? what is the demographic makeup of these gangs? this would end up becoming an all out race/poverty war based on these eliminations. we already have a process that works, the problem is it fails to deal with the end result in bail, sentencing and incarceration. Put them on trial, when convicted then put them in jail - FOREVER. the problem is society isn't willing to do that.
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Well, I agree with your idea, but I don't agree that we have a process that works. - dan
 
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