Steel shot in a Damascus cartridge gun

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Rebelson said:
I'm experimenting with pushing the limits, people here talk about a life long learning curve but won't even think of challenging the standards they didnt set and heard from uncle bob in 1964. But then again I'm in my mid 20s pursuing gunsmithing and going to gunsmith school in the states next year as many here have. You can keep your shallow learning curves, I'll be pushing the limits long after your under 6 ft of dirt. I value the opinions of others until they start punching down which is all im getting here...but if you want to have a pis*ing contest by all means old boys let's talk s#it
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Look pal.... Any gunsmith doesn't act or speak like that...how do i know? Well i worked on guns longer u been out of diapers.. Pushing limits for what? To say hey...look i blew it up...time to blow up another 1...
Did you ever think the gentlemen here might be gunsmiths? And you aspire to be one is great...what you gonna do when your instructor in the US. May disagree with your work or your ideas? Its called constructive criticism...you open a debate..prepare for opposing comments and maybe common sense.
Lets say someone else tries to recreate your project..
Screws up...blows gun apart and he or she loses eyes or fingers ...or a piece of metal flies a distance and hits a by stander? They say..." Well buddy from cgn Did it so i guess its safe " do you see what i mean? Your advocating a dangerous experiment ...maybe a person reading it with LESS KNOWLEDGE may not do something right...and then an injury happens.... Buddy
Your trying to school gunsmiths on here....it aimt gonna work... No comments made to you here were insulting, your just kind of pissy u got negative feedback...but thats part of it guy.... Pros and cons..
Ive bee. Loading and shooting Damascus guns longer than youve had your PAL i assure you...you wont school me on barrel construction and safe pressures.
I wish you luck with your experiment...youll. Prove something thats been discussed a million times before
 
I wouldn’t use steel in a gun made pre 1950. I’d also make sure it’s in a proper wad with proper shot(not air rifle bbs) and in a gun choked less than mod. I’d also make sure the velocity was more or less around 1400fps and stop if any signs of damage occurred.

I plan to test some steel out of my old stevens bolt action I will probably keep the choke set to cylinder that said I love that gun and have to really make myself do it. After the tests the guys over on the outdoors did I don’t foresee any issues but this gun has a fluid steel barrel and isn’t Damascus that could potentially have a bad weld or rust between welds.

Blowing up a gun on purpose is something I wouldn’t do as a gunsmith that wants business especially if one were to be more than a gun plumber.
 
HUNTERROD said:
Look pal.... Any gunsmith doesn't act or speak like that...how do i know? Well i worked on guns longer u been out of diapers.. Pushing limits for what? To say hey...look i blew it up...time to blow up another 1...
Did you ever think the gentlemen here might be gunsmiths? And you aspire to be one is great...what you gonna do when your instructor in the US. May disagree with your work or your ideas? Its called constructive criticism...you open a debate..prepare for opposing comments and maybe common sense.
Lets say someone else tries to recreate your project..
Screws up...blows gun apart and he or she loses eyes or fingers ...or a piece of metal flies a distance and hits a by stander? They say..." Well buddy from cgn Did it so i guess its safe " do you see what i mean? Your advocating a dangerous experiment ...maybe a person reading it with LESS KNOWLEDGE may not do something right...and then an injury happens.... Buddy
Your trying to school gunsmiths on here....it aimt gonna work... No comments made to you here were insulting, your just kind of pissy u got negative feedback...but thats part of it guy.... Pros and cons..
Ive bee. Loading and shooting Damascus guns longer than youve had your PAL i assure you...you wont school me on barrel construction and safe pressures.
I wish you luck with your experiment...youll. Prove something thats been discussed a million times before
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If you don't think anyone's comments toward this idea weren't condescending and attemping to insult my intelligence then you need new glasses. I asked for a polite debate atleast 3 times, and have listened to both sides of the argument that didn't belittle a guy trying something out. seems like you guys just cry in the comments when someone won't agree with you and your shallow learning curve. I'm not mad because they don't agree, it's how the said it, if gunsmiths don't talk like that then why am I giving back the exact attitude that I've been receiving... I value the opinions of others and WILL take them into consideration. Its has helped alot in the research required BUT the only one I won't consider listening to is that all gunsmiths don't talk like that. Because here we are old timer "common sense isn't common anymore". only thing you need to be schooled on is mutual respect, just remember I asked multiple times to keep this civil
 
antiqueguy said:
I wouldn’t use steel in a gun made pre 1950. I’d also make sure it’s in a proper wad with proper shot(not air rifle bbs) and in a gun choked less than mod. I’d also make sure the velocity was more or less around 1400fps and stop if any signs of damage occurred.

I plan to test some steel out of my old stevens bolt action I will probably keep the choke set to cylinder that said I love that gun and have to really make myself do it. After the tests the guys over on the outdoors did I don’t foresee any issues but this gun has a fluid steel barrel and isn’t Damascus that could potentially have a bad weld or rust between welds.

Blowing up a gun on purpose is something I wouldn’t do as a gunsmith that wants business especially if one were to be more than a gun plumber.
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Be careful, people say you should use poly chokes with steel, they'll jump down your throat for not toeing they're imaginary line lol
 
antiqueguy said:
I wouldn’t use steel in a gun made pre 1950. I’d also make sure it’s in a proper wad with proper shot(not air rifle bbs) and in a gun choked less than mod. I’d also make sure the velocity was more or less around 1400fps and stop if any signs of damage occurred.

I plan to test some steel out of my old stevens bolt action I will probably keep the choke set to cylinder that said I love that gun and have to really make myself do it. After the tests the guys over on the outdoors did I don’t foresee any issues but this gun has a fluid steel barrel and isn’t Damascus that could potentially have a bad weld or rust between welds.

Blowing up a gun on purpose is something I wouldn’t do as a gunsmith that wants business especially if one were to be more than a gun plumber.
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Also if a gunsmith isn't willing to PERSONALLY test the theory's they preach whether it's destructive from a vice or test new and exciting ideas that could eventually lead to further advancements in common firearms knowledge, then they are a gun plumber and that's why no one will remember they're name
 
Rebelson said:
If you don't think anyone's comments toward this idea weren't condescending and attemping to insult my intelligence then you need new glasses. I asked for a polite debate atleast 3 times, and have listened to both sides of the argument that didn't belittle a guy trying something out. seems like you guys just cry in the comments when someone won't agree with you and your shallow learning curve. I'm not mad because they don't agree, it's how the said it, if gunsmiths don't talk like that then why am I giving back the exact attitude that I've been receiving... I value the opinions of others and WILL take them into consideration. Its has helped alot in the research required BUT the only one I won't consider listening to is that all gunsmiths don't talk like that. Because here we are old timer "common sense isn't common anymore". only thing you need to be schooled on is mutual respect, just remember I asked multiple times to keep this civil
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Can i ask what you expect to learn with this experiment...so...you put it in a vice...fire it...25x it survives...then you go hunting with a friend in a duck blind standing next to you...birds come in...you fire..and gun explodes in your face and your buddy gets hit with shrapnel? Then what will the lesson be...
Point is..theres is no warning when a damascus gun lets go...inclusions in the barrel can weaken at any time...softer metals going down the bore will stress the gun less...as it was designed to do 130yrs ago...
Pushing limits is more like pushing luck in this case.
If damascus guns were safe for steel? Dont you think
Shot manufactures would have " pushed limits " before you did? Think about it. Just because 25shots it lived...dont mean the 26th wont pop the barrel in the field in somones face...
 
Damascus and fluid steel barrel production overlapped for about 50 years I believe...

I don't believe it's what going down a Damascus barrel is what blows one up but excessive pressure due to incorrect powder or over charge. There are high quality Damascus barrels that have survived proof testing. But all the warnings about Damascus say to use recognized black powder loads if your barrel appears sound.
 
antiqueguy said:
I wouldn’t use steel in a gun made pre 1950. I’d also make sure it’s in a proper wad with proper shot(not air rifle bbs) and in a gun choked less than mod. I’d also make sure the velocity was more or less around 1400fps and stop if any signs of damage occurred.

I plan to test some steel out of my old stevens bolt action I will probably keep the choke set to cylinder that said I love that gun and have to really make myself do it. After the tests the guys over on the outdoors did I don’t foresee any issues but this gun has a fluid steel barrel and isn’t Damascus that could potentially have a bad weld or rust between welds.

Blowing up a gun on purpose is something I wouldn’t do as a gunsmith that wants business especially if one were to be more than a gun plumber.
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Id be hesitant withba mossberg CLect choke or a polychoke with steel... Id do some research...
I had a remington 870 super mag...( steel proofed)
Fired a BBB. 3.5" goose load in it...and i split the choke tube. " rem choke modifed ) that came supplied with the gun...it bulged the barrel and Remington would not warranty it..they blamed ammo maufacture ( challenger ) ..challenger said ammo was fine...blame the gun manufacture...i had to cut and re thread barrel for carlson chokes...was ok after....
 
To try and push steel shot with black powder fast enough to make it efficient is not something that anybody I know would do that has experience with vintage arms.
I use Bismuth on my vintage guns- one an undelerlever and several other vintage muzzle loading and cartridge guns and have shot and studied these guns since the late 70's.
Most underlevers have a weak style of lock up, and unless a Damascus barrel is proofrd for high pressure , personally i think it is a fool's errand to try and experiment using steel shot in one.
Cat
 
To actually see what would be happening in this type of experiment instead of relying on the barrels to let go to prove a point you would have to X-ray the barrels after every shot to actually see if there is a change in the barrels metallurgy to prove anything worth while.Like Hunter Rod states you could shoot a gun 25 times and the 26th time blows it up but the stress in the barrel might of actually started a lot earlier.In your experiment you would never when the change actually occurred
 
The thing is you came here and asked for advice but have basically went off in anyone who didn’t follow your idea.

I have owned a couple Damascus shotguns that I considered worthy of shooting. far too many are pitted and most likely unsafe even the smallest pit could be a hidden void in a weld. Sometimes you can’t even see rust in the barrels it’s packed in between welds and can cause a failure. These guns not only seen black powder and its early substitutes(bulk semi smokeless much like pyrodex) they also seen corrosive primers.

For those that do not know how Demarcus barrels were made they took thin strips of iron and steel welded together in a bar(forge welded) these were twisted and then wrapped around a mandrel and the tube was then forge welded together vertically. Not something I’d like to play games with.
 
HUNTERROD said:
Id be hesitant withba mossberg CLect choke or a polychoke with steel... Id do some research...
I had a remington 870 super mag...( steel proofed)
Fired a BBB. 3.5" goose load in it...and i split the choke tube. " rem choke modifed ) that came supplied with the gun...it bulged the barrel and Remington would not warranty it..they blamed ammo maufacture ( challenger ) ..challenger said ammo was fine...blame the gun manufacture...i had to cut and re thread barrel for carlson chokes...was ok after....
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Yes this is why the box of 2 3/4 steel shells I bought 5 years ago is still sitting around haven’t wanted to tempt fate with it. love the patterns that come out of this gun. I have been tempted to buy a bag of bismuth and just load that for ducks but kinda have an excuse to buy another gun at the same time.
 
Having a crack detecting kit on hand might be a good idea. Might be possible to detect incipient failure. Test before, during and after.
Used the process to check a centerfire rifle bolt that had a mark at the root of a locking lug that looked as if it could be a crack. It wasn't. But the test eliminated guesswork.
 
Blew a breechplug out of a Belgian twist barrel double set. But it turned out that the threads had been previously pooched.
 
tiriaq said:
Having a crack detecting kit on hand might be a good idea. Might be possible to detect incipient failure. Test before, during and after.
Used the process to check a centerfire rifle bolt that had a mark at the root of a locking lug that looked as if it could be a crack. It wasn't. But the test eliminated guesswork.
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Its one thing to shoot the damascus...twist...or laminated barrels... #1 i look for bore cond...rust...pits ...dents...cracks, outside then look for pitting...rust...
Then ill ring test them...if it passes... Ill then load appropriate ammo for them...as they were intended..
Ive yet to have a damascus gun fail...even junkers..
But with lead shot and pyrodex or BP...and fiber wads only...no plastic.... Chances are..it will last another 125 yrs... But.... Steel shot in regular shot wads is a NONO..the petals are softer and thinner..steel pellets
Will contact the bore...and if any rust or pitting gets in its way...every. Shot it scrapes them more and more..
Cylinder choke or not.. Now...using BP or pyrodex with plastic...also a nono...heres why...every shot...hot gasses from the BP hit the wad and melt some...it gets smeared all over bore...after it cools..it hardens
Creates RESTRICTION which in turn creates PRESSURES in spots of the barrel which its not designed to handle...so...25 shots later...the gun kicks
Like a burmese mule as bire dia decreases...then.
BOOOM....barrel decides the pressure is to much and pressure takes the shortest path to escape...side of barrel comes out...damascus barrels are designed thick at breaches to contain initial BOOM of the powder going off. Black powder loses steam FAST buttttt with a layer of goopy plastic in bore...its like a sewer pipe backed up...then the pipe splits or lets go when pressure meets restriction.... Its just a bad idea.
And im sure if companies like RST...POLYWAD...KENT
thought there was any slimmest thought of it being safe...theyd of developed BP or pyrodex. Steel loads
Safe for older guns....
 
antiqueguy said:
The thing is you came here and asked for advice but have basically went off in anyone who didn’t follow your idea.

I have owned a couple Damascus shotguns that I considered worthy of shooting. far too many are pitted and most likely unsafe even the smallest pit could be a hidden void in a weld. Sometimes you can’t even see rust in the barrels it’s packed in between welds and can cause a failure. These guns not only seen black powder and its early substitutes(bulk semi smokeless much like pyrodex) they also seen corrosive primers.

For those that do not know how Demarcus barrels were made they took thin strips of iron and steel welded together in a bar(forge welded) these were twisted and then wrapped around a mandrel and the tube was then forge welded together vertically. Not something I’d like to play games with.
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I posted one of my laminated barreled 12 gauges from belgium in the forum..go have a look at it..
I shoot it quite often... I also have a youtube channel
Rods vintage sxs channel. Feel free to check out videos i did on my damascus guns. Ive been shooting damascus guns since im 18, im now 45. Still have all my fingers..but ive never tempted using steel
 
HUNTERROD said:
I posted one of my laminated barreled 12 gauges from belgium in the forum..go have a look at it..
I shoot it quite often... I also have a youtube channel
Rods vintage sxs channel. Feel free to check out videos i did on my damascus guns. Ive been shooting damascus guns since im 18, im now 45. Still have all my fingers..but ive never tempted using steel
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I shot mine quite a bit if I remember right it was also Belgian nothing high grade but does the job. Sold it and a bunch of brass with it years ago.
 
guntech said:
Damascus and fluid steel barrel production overlapped for about 50 years I believe...

I don't believe it's what going down a Damascus barrel is what blows one up but excessive pressure due to incorrect powder or over charge. There are high quality Damascus barrels that have survived proof testing. But all the warnings about Damascus say to use recognized black powder loads if your barrel appears sound.
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Thank you, do you happen to know the year range of the overlapping manufacture of Damascus and fuild steel, might be easier to find evidence with the DOM
 
HUNTERROD said:
Its one thing to shoot the damascus...twist...or laminated barrels... #1 i look for bore cond...rust...pits ...dents...cracks, outside then look for pitting...rust...
Then ill ring test them...if it passes... Ill then load appropriate ammo for them...as they were intended..
Ive yet to have a damascus gun fail...even junkers..
But with lead shot and pyrodex or BP...and fiber wads only...no plastic.... Chances are..it will last another 125 yrs... But.... Steel shot in regular shot wads is a NONO..the petals are softer and thinner..steel pellets
Will contact the bore...and if any rust or pitting gets in its way...every. Shot it scrapes them more and more..
Cylinder choke or not.. Now...using BP or pyrodex with plastic...also a nono...heres why...every shot...hot gasses from the BP hit the wad and melt some...it gets smeared all over bore...after it cools..it hardens
Creates RESTRICTION which in turn creates PRESSURES in spots of the barrel which its not designed to handle...so...25 shots later...the gun kicks
Like a burmese mule as bire dia decreases...then.
BOOOM....barrel decides the pressure is to much and pressure takes the shortest path to escape...side of barrel comes out...damascus barrels are designed thick at breaches to contain initial BOOM of the powder going off. Black powder loses steam FAST buttttt with a layer of goopy plastic in bore...its like a sewer pipe backed up...then the pipe splits or lets go when pressure meets restriction.... Its just a bad idea.
And im sure if companies like RST...POLYWAD...KENT
thought there was any slimmest thought of it being safe...theyd of developed BP or pyrodex. Steel loads
Safe for older guns....
Click to expand...

Thanks I'll keep that in mind during the test
 
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