Steel shot in a Damascus cartridge gun

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If you are shooting waterfowl on your own ground just use lead shot. Been used for hundreds of years and I suspect more ducks have been wounded and lost with steel shot than ever died from lead poisoning except in locations with huge amounts of shooters.

I shoot lead in my Damascus guns. I would load some bismuth with fiber wads for pond birds if i could find any shot locally...i bought a brand new churchill 512 sxs with screw chokes for steel..and a semi auto for steel
My Damascus guns are all great old guns..and valuable...ill shoot them how they were intended to be
And likely theyll last another 130 plus yrs lol..
 
If you are shooting waterfowl on your own ground just use lead shot. Been used for hundreds of years and I suspect more ducks have been wounded and lost with steel shot than ever died from lead poisoning except in locations with huge amounts of shooters.

I wish I could but I follow the laws to avoid any issues even if they may never check. This is just an experiment for fun and to see if it can be done without damage. I wish lead was still legal for migratory game
 
Well friend you asked for feedback and replies. Did you really expect that all your solicited comments would be favourably cheering you on? It really makes no difference to me, I’ll likely never meet you, hunt or shoot with you or even remember your quest in a months time. You do what you like, if you hadn’t asked for feedback in the first place I likely wouldn’t have commented at all. I don’t indulge in online pi$$ing matches, have fun, I’m out of this conversation.

I posted this to debate with others on the feasibility of this theory, just because you can't tolerate someone else having a different opinion they're willing to back wether right or wrong doesn't prove or disprove your argument in said debate. Don't take it personally pal
 
Seems the popular opinion is that you shouldn't bother and it might be dangerous. The most cogent remark I saw was that black powder and steel shot isn't going to give you the killing velocity/power you will need.


But it sounds like you are gonna do this anyway.


My only remarks would be:

1. Not all Damascus is created equal

2. Strapping a gun down to a bench, hiding behind a truck and yanking on a rope is not a controlled environment.

3. Visual inspection only is not an "experiment" unless you can actually measure what is going on, this is just a pull the trigger and see what happens.

4. You won't put $80 of shot through a $200 gun but can afford to blow up 4 more guns .... ?? .... Just buy something that will shoot the steel shot.


I posted this to debate with others on the feasibility of this theory

I think you just want to blow up a gun - there has been no debate here at all, your comments are just to justify/defend your experiment.
 
Sean. I agree...hes gonna do it anyways, if there was any data avail and any loaded ammo avail...im sure thousands of damascus guns would be out in the field...shooting steel..yes damascus varies greatly in quality...but...only takes 1 mishap and gun is destroyed..i think this post is like saying... Im gonna run molasses for engine oil and see if i can drive 1000 miles...knowing its not gonna work...
 
And unless your using wad cups designed for steel shot... Lead shotcups are thinner. The steel will penetrate it an hit bore causing scouring...and if pitting exists..pellets can get fetched up as they Dont swage or deform like lead or bismuth..creating a bore
Obstruction...or pressure spike. And yes the forcing cones in older guns are designed for lead shot or softer shot alternatives.. Not steel... There are special wads for steel shot use ( thicker) less shot volume..your only gonna get about 1/2 oz of shot in that load at around 1000/1100fps... My 12 g lead loads with 2.5 " shells and fiber wads...1 1/8 oz only hit 1050fps..no good for steel to be effective...lead would be ok at that velocity. 2.5" 16g hull only has so much room for powder...wads ...shot...
 
Steel shot to be effective reqiures atleast 1450fps to kill beyond 25 yards...i reload 12 g steel... My 2 3/4" load with 1oz #3 shot...is a kill if under 25 yards.
My 3" loads with 1 3/16 oz #4. Loads at 1700fps
Are gd to 35/40 yards.. However...guys i hunted with
Used lower velocity ammo and crippled ALOT of birds
Id buy the bismuth save your $ from blowing up guns and buy proper shot and wads and enjoy your old sxs
4 blown up guns ( cost/value) would buy atleast 7lbs of bismuth
 
The combination of the thin wall of full length brass and no crimp to unfurl will cause a larger diameter of the shot cup before entering the forcing cone than a high brass plastic or cardboard shell.
 
Steel shot to be effective reqiures atleast 1450fps to kill beyond 25 yards...i reload 12 g steel... My 2 3/4" load with 1oz #3 shot...is a kill if under 25 yards.
My 3" loads with 1 3/16 oz #4. Loads at 1700fps
Are gd to 35/40 yards.. However...guys i hunted with
Used lower velocity ammo and crippled ALOT of birds
Id buy the bismuth save your $ from blowing up guns and buy proper shot and wads and enjoy your old sxs
4 blown up guns ( cost/value) would buy atleast 7lbs of bismuth

To sum it up...

steel shot requires thick plastic wads
black powder tends to melt plastic wads
steel shot is harder than Damascus steel
steel shot requires high velocity (high pressures) to kill effectively

I will add steel shot patterns best with a little choke

is that it?
 
I would use a wad specifically for steel shot in this.

Steel shot(not air gun bbs these are extremely hard)is about as soft as iron and has proven to be safe in old guns with modern wads and modified or less choke. Would I use it in a Damascus gun probably not I’d go with bismuth.
 
I'm writing as someone who has used and continues to use damascus-barrelled guns for several decades and has spent even more time researching their manufacture, from hand-forged to machine-made, and from coarse tubes to finished gun barrels.

There is no single type of 'damascus'. Any reference to damascus, twist or laminated barrels, each quite different, describes wholly different materials and properties depending on the year and country. Within each type, there is a vast difference in quality, depending on the ratios of steel and iron used, the sources of the steel and iron, and the degree of twisting of these in manufacture. In addition, hand-forged barrels will be quite different from machine-forged barrels. Not knowing what you're dealing with makes the whole exercise one of just guessing, perhaps at the cost of an eye or fingers, and perhaps not your own.

Add to this 100+ years of either good, careful maintenance or neglectful abuse, and you have a great deal of variability. Damascus barrels can rust between the twisted bands, which may not be easily apparent, weakening them significantly. Rust may also develop under the ribs, again away from any visual inspection. Knowing if the barrels are in proof is a good start, and knowing barrel wall thickness is likely to be part of this, as honed or overly-polished barrels bring entirely new risks. Depending on the age of your gun, the chamber length and forcing cone shape may not approach modern dimensions. If your gun is proofed for black powder only, the chamber length (in mm) might not be given in the proof marks.

With old shotguns, pressure is of utmost consideration. This acts on the barrels of course, but also on the action bar and face, fore-end loop, and the stock. Anything which increases pressure unnecessarily has to be given serious thought; subjecting a gun to pressures higher than what it was built for 100+ years ago is foolhardy, and to do so after 100+ years of unknown use, abuse and possible modifications is several degrees worse.

If you are dealing with a gun that was built by the best craftsmen with the best materials, and properly stored, maintained and cared for, time is of lesser concern, and its use might be warranted for several generations of shooters. If you are dealing with a Belgian hardware-store gun, built with the cheapest materials and to the lowest manufacturing standards, then one cannot expect such a gun to last more than a few seasons in the field, if that. Such guns are also far more likely to be 'rode hard and put away wet,' at least for part of their long life. Just because it didn't blow up last time, is no guarantee it won't at the next trigger pull.

There is a lot of expertise on CGN, from many who have been on a lifetime learning curve. Asking people to take the time to provide you with detailed advice and the benefit of their experience, for free, is already much to ask for. Dismiss and diss such advice at your own peril.
 
To sum it up...

steel shot requires thick plastic wads
black powder tends to melt plastic wads
steel shot is harder than Damascus steel
steel shot requires high velocity (high pressures) to kill effectively

I will add steel shot patterns best with a little choke

is that it?

Many replys and I finally get the coles notes of what I'm looking at. Thank you I'll keep that in mind.
 
I see alot of replys on both sides of the argument, as stated before I'm going to try it from a vice anyway and see if I can blow it up and hang on a wall and learn. Seems alot of people here don't like experimenting with pushing the limits from a vice, to them I say stay away from YouTube.. plenty of torture test videos on there that would give you fits. Why is it this has to turn to a harsh argument when people don't agree? Can't we all just chuckle at the idea and see if damage is done or not?
 
But you couldnt justify 80$ worth of bismuth in a 200$
Gun, but youll buy 4 guns at 150$ each to destroy them is what got me...if you have a youtube channel
So do i...are you doing it for views? Ive got respect for the old guns and knowledge thats on here...i shkot damascus guns on a regular basis...i posted on of mine in the forum .. I dont see logic i blowing it up if you know its going to anyways... Enjoy your experiment...
 
It s kind of an experiment that accomplishes very little.There are too many variables with older Damascus barreled guns ,age,condition,quality ,materials and manufacture to really prove anything why a gun blew up especially if you only use lower grade guns as that would be your first reason there.Kind of sad to destroy something just to say you did but in the end it s your property.Next experiment drain all the oil out of your cars engine and drive it around for a while to see what will happen
 
It s kind of an experiment that accomplishes very little.There are too many variables with older Damascus barreled guns ,age,condition,quality ,materials and manufacture to really prove anything why a gun blew up especially if you only use lower grade guns as that would be your first reason there.Kind of sad to destroy something just to say you did but in the end it s your property.Next experiment drain all the oil out of your cars engine and drive it around for a while to see what will happen

Like those " customer states videos " customer states his gun shoots and poor patterning please adress issue
( choke seems to be opened up a few inches ��������
 
Like those " customer states videos " customer states his gun shoots and poor patterning please adress issue
( choke seems to be opened up a few inches ��������

I'm experimenting with pushing the limits, people here talk about a life long learning curve but won't even think of challenging the standards they didnt set and heard from uncle bob in 1964. But then again I'm in my mid 20s pursuing gunsmithing and going to gunsmith school in the states next year as many here have. You can keep your shallow learning curves, I'll be pushing the limits long after your under 6 ft of dirt. I value the opinions of others until they start punching down which is all im getting here...but if you want to have a pis*ing contest by all means old boys let's talk s#it
 
I'm experimenting with pushing the limits, people here talk about a life long learning curve but won't even think of challenging the standards they didnt set and heard from uncle bob in 1964. But then again I'm in my mid 20s pursuing gunsmithing and going to gunsmith school in the states next year as many here have. You can keep your shallow learning curves, I'll be pushing the limits long after your under 6 ft of dirt. I value the opinions of others until they start punching down which is all im getting here...but if you want to have a pis*ing contest by all means old boys let's talk s#it

Well I now know one gunsmith to avoid.
 
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