New to Black Powder, where to start?

N

Northern Shooter

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Location
North
As someone who never thought I'd be owning a BP rifle, I'm now interested and here I am.

Where's a good place to start for a beginner? New production (CVA, TC etc.) or a vintage rifle?

What is the ammo selection like? is ammo commercially available in retail stores? Is it all lead ball ammo or are there also BP cartridges? I'm curious to know some of the ballistics on these loads.

What are some good resources to get more information on this subject?

Cheers,
 
It would be helpful to narrow down your interests a bit. Your question is all over the map. There is a whole lot of variations and "territory" between a "vintage" matchlock and a "new production" SS inline as far as muzzleloaders go and then there is black powder cartridge which is a whole 'nuther genre all together.
 
Licensed to kill said:
It would be helpful to narrow down your interests a bit. Your question is all over the map. There is a whole lot of variations and "territory" between a "vintage" matchlock and a "new production" SS inline as far as muzzleloaders go and then there is black powder cartridge which is a whole 'nuther genre all together.
Click to expand...

Yeah sorry still trying to decipher the terminology.

I'm researching this mainly for hunting purposes as opposed to collecting so I'm guessing I'm more leaning towards a new, or newer production black powder rifle that will meet the requirements of the BP hunting seasons.

I'm still unsure exactly what projectile is used in these firearms, are they a true "cartridge" or is more of a slug with a powder charge behind it?
 
I am not aware of any "Black powder" seasons that would include BP cartridge. Most are "muzzleloader" season and the "rules" for what constitutes a legal firearm for that season will vary from province/state to province/state.
 
For hunting it's hard to go wrong with a 50cal 'in line 209' with removable breech plug & scope, using Blackhorn 209 powder.

They can be had at very reasonable prices, like the CVA Optima or TC Impact to name a few...
 
Quite a range of BP shooters out there: some are historical firearm purists, others are hunters wanting to take advantage of muzzleloader season and willing to use whatever modern muzzleloader meets the letter of their hunting regulations. Some shoot genuine black powder and others use substitutes. Then there are Cowboy shooters with BP cartridges somewhere in between.
 
Would you want a traditional rifle or when of them new pushing the edge of what we can call a muzzleloader rifles.

For me when I look at a muzzleloader 95 perfect if what I’m looking at buying is a flintlock but that’s me as I’d rather be limited to powder(real BP no substitutes) then have to worry about cap or primer shortages.
 
My family farm is BP only for deer so went down the blackpowder road 20 plus years ago. Started with a CVA Eclipse and moved up to a CVA Wolf a number of years ago. Very inexpensive firearm but very accurate, reliable and drops deer like a sledgehammer. The CVA Powerbelts work well but I've been using 303 grain .45 calibre sabots for quite some time. I love hunting with blackpowder but hate cleaning them.
 
Northern Shooter said:
Yeah sorry still trying to decipher the terminology.

I'm researching this mainly for hunting purposes as opposed to collecting so I'm guessing I'm more leaning towards a new, or newer production black powder rifle that will meet the requirements of the BP hunting seasons.

I'm still unsure exactly what projectile is used in these firearms, are they a true "cartridge" or is more of a slug with a powder charge behind it?
Click to expand...

I used to have a 50 caliber Thompson Centre Omega - so it used 209 type primers - "shotgun primers" - I had used various powders - almost all was Triple Seven which is one of several substitutes for black powder - could get that stuff loose in a can or in 30 grain and 50 grain pre-formed "tubes". Have to pay attention to granulation size if you are using loose powder - typically use a "volume" tool to load - getting "equivalent volume" to a specified weight of Black Powder - I did not know anyone who "weighed" his muzzle loader loads - was all "volume". You will find Black Powder typically very forgiving - is really VERY inefficient - read old school Africa hunters using "heaping handful" of coarse black powder to reload their smoke pole, on the run after game that had been shot at. The "projectile" might be a lubed "conical", or a saboted bullet - the various XTP handgun bullets seemed popular - some early types with very slow twist - like 1:66 - wanted a patched lead round ball. Was some variation among sabot makers for thickness - also some variation among barrel makers for diameter - so some combinations easy to load - others virtually impossible after one or two shots (showed up at the range, mostly). Some makers - Savage (?) Ruger(?) made muzzle loaders that fired smokeless powders - I have no experience with them.

Although I never did get a deer with that muzzle loader, it more or less broke me of the thought that I needed a magazine - I then hunted perhaps 20 years with a single shot Ruger No. 1A - in 7x57. I got (and missed!) many dozens deer with that single shot rifle.

Your use of words might be misleading you - for Saskatchewan, anyways, it was a "muzzle loading" season - so pretty much about how you got the thing ready to fire - pour powder or insert pellets into muzzle, then usually a saboted bullet - ramrod that down to position, then pick up rifle and insert a primer - ready to fire - was no "cartridge" at all, and may not even have used "black powder" - but was "muzzle loading". Some of us had "speed loaders" - so like a plastic tube that contained a pre-measured amount of powder to dump in, and a bullet to seat, and often a primer on it to use in the rifle - but the "speed loader" itself was not used to fire.

EDIT: - something that I had forgotten - is a fair commotion to reload a muzzle loader standing beside a shooting table at a range, with all your stuff laid out on the table, and that rifle leaning against that table. Almost an entirely different experience to reload in middle of pasture or bush - your stuff in various pouches and pockets, and figure out how to get and use it while hanging on to the rifle at the same time - takes some thought and practice - maybe can have rate of fire perhaps one round every two minutes in the bush - in other words, make your first shot count!! Versus cartridges loaded with black powder - I believe was common in the past to reload 32 Special with black powder for use in a Winchester 94 lever action - so will be a number of black powder shots available as quickly as you can cycle the action - if you can see through the smoke to aim and fire - that was black powder cartridges, but NOT muzzle loading.
 
Last edited:
Northern Shooter said:
As someone who never thought I'd be owning a BP rifle, I'm now interested and here I am.

Where's a good place to start for a beginner? New production (CVA, TC etc.) or a vintage rifle?

What is the ammo selection like? is ammo commercially available in retail stores? Is it all lead ball ammo or are there also BP cartridges? I'm curious to know some of the ballistics on these loads.

What are some good resources to get more information on this subject?

Cheers,
Click to expand...

Where are you located? This would help us direct you...
 
As others have said it depends on a lot of variables. Myself I prefer the single shot black powder cartridge rifles , there are reproductions on the market for the 1874 Remington Rolling Block, 1874 Sharps, 1884 Springfield Trapdoor and the 1885 Winchester Highwall. Check out the (2) most popular Italian makers Pedersoli and Uberti. I have one of each all chambered in 45-70Gov't. My personal recommendation would be the 1885 Winchester Highwall from Uberti.

RangeDay with Scope_25.jpg

Retreever
 

Attachments

  • RangeDay with Scope_25.jpg
    RangeDay with Scope_25.jpg
    65.7 KB · Views: 132
If you're looking at a Black Powder Cartridge Rifle, you'll likely find a decent rifle to be a bit pricey. Be prepared to be handloading, finding loaded ammo might be difficult and expensive. Castboolits is a good forum for info.

Traditional muzzleloaders can be found for a decent price. I'd suggest a 50 cal, seems like the easiest to find your bits and bobs. Working up a load can be pretty challenging like handloading for a cartridge.
Good sources for info are Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System and The Muzzleloading Forum (speak only of traditional muzzleloading there).
Online suppliers I recommend are Track of The Wolf and The Gun Works but there are a lot out there.

If you want a modern inline, I have nothing to contribute.
 
Northern Shooter said:
Northern Ontario.
Click to expand...

I was looking for a city/town to be exact. So that being said, go or contact your larger gun clubs in the region and see if any of them have a blackpowder group. Contact them and set up a date to get together with them. They will introduce you to a whole new world. Most likely you will be trying out some guns to get an idea of what you may like.

There is an Ontario Muzzle Loaders Association, Crumlin's Sportsman's Association in London, Mapleleaf Marksman in St. Catherines just to name a few that do BP. Don't ask me about these groups as I am not from there but I have shot with a few great folks from there who shoot BP.

If you do meet up with a group bring a box of donuts with you...

Good luck and enjoy...
 
gallen270 said:
https://www.ontario.ca/files/2023-05/mnrf-2023-hunting-regulations-summary-en-2023-05-03.pdf

Reading the regs Ontario doesn’t restrict muzzleloaders (page 29) for hunting any more than “…a gun loaded through the muzzle”, so if you want simplicity just for hunting grab an “inline 209” muzzleloader like a cva. Buy the right size sabot bullets, some 209 primers, and pyrodex pellets and your off to the races.
Click to expand...

I would add to make sure that the sabots that you buy, fit the bullets that you buy, and that the bullet in the sabot actually fits down the barrel - not all are the same to each other. I found was multiple combinations that DID and DID NOT fit, especially after a couple shots with fouling residue in the bore. An acquaintance showed me to keep a cotton patch in my mouth - it gets wet - to swab a fired bore with that before re-loading - made it easier to get next sabot down the hole, if you have a "tight" combination. And don't forget to get primers - not much going to happen on an in-line without them. If you have a flintlock, might want to be sure to have some of the finer primer powder, but I have no experience with those - not sure if you can use the same powder under the bullet, as on the flash pan.

It is my recollection that various makers would sell "cards" with perhaps 6 or 12 bullets and sabots - like Thompson Center, Barnes, etc. - or you could buy packages of 100 or so handgun bullets and bulk sabots - but had to have idea what would fit into your bore. Oddly, back then, was no standardization among barrel makers what size is ".50 caliber" - so could get different brands rifles with bores 0.505" down to 0.495" - if you do not think 0.010" makes much difference, you have never tried to load after a third shot.
 
Last edited:
Northern Shooter said:
As someone who never thought I'd be owning a BP rifle, I'm now interested and here I am.

Where's a good place to start for a beginner? New production (CVA, TC etc.) or a vintage rifle?

What is the ammo selection like? is ammo commercially available in retail stores? Is it all lead ball ammo or are there also BP cartridges? I'm curious to know some of the ballistics on these loads.

What are some good resources to get more information on this subject?

Cheers,
Click to expand...

I'd recommend starting with a .50 caliber Hawken rifle. There are a lot of them around so they can be had for a reasonable cost. Then, you have to decide flintlock, or percussion. With the recent percussion cap shortage, a flinter will keep you shooting...but if you're hunting with it, know that it's a fair weather gun. Some will argue, and there are things the old guys did to keep them reliable in the rain, but misfires are -likely-.

Projectiles can be store bought, and they are nice to have, but most of us have moulds and pour our own projectiles. Patch and ball works very well, I prefer to forego the patch and shoot lubed R.E.A.L boolits and highly recommend getting a casting mould for this particular projectile.

Ballistics largely depends on the amount of charge, and barrel length. Hawkens' are basically carbine length hunting rifles so any charge much past 90 grains is essentially just blown out the barrel and adds nothing to the base of the projectile is my experience. Having said that, 90 grains behind a heavy Minnie ball kicks like a mule and is very flat out to 75 yards, which is about the extent of accurate shooting with iron sights and this platform.

Have fun, play safe, when you find Goex, buy it all. ;)
 
Painkillers said:
I'd recommend starting with a .50 caliber Hawken rifle. There are a lot of them around so they can be had for a reasonable cost. Then, you have to decide flintlock, or percussion. With the recent percussion cap shortage, a flinter will keep you shooting...but if you're hunting with it, know that it's a fair weather gun. Some will argue, and there are things the old guys did to keep them reliable in the rain, but misfires are -likely-.

Projectiles can be store bought, and they are nice to have, but most of us have moulds and pour our own projectiles. Patch and ball works very well, I prefer to forego the patch and shoot lubed R.E.A.L boolits and highly recommend getting a casting mould for this particular projectile.

Ballistics largely depends on the amount of charge, and barrel length. Hawkens' are basically carbine length hunting rifles so any charge much past 90 grains is essentially just blown out the barrel and adds nothing to the base of the projectile is my experience. Having said that, 90 grains behind a heavy Minnie ball kicks like a mule and is very flat out to 75 yards, which is about the extent of accurate shooting with iron sights and this platform.

Have fun, play safe, when you find Goex, buy it all. ;)
Click to expand...
You can't really "choose" between a patched round ball and a R.E.A.L bullet, the rifle will make the choice for you as the ideal twist for a round ball is too slow for a bullet (even the R.E.A.L which is relatively short) and the ideal twist for a bullet is too fast for a RB so it is best to decide what projectile you want to use then buy a gun rifled accordingly.
 
Yes I would ask around, the guys you shoot with will probably have extra Gans, sabots, powders, etc you could try before you buy. Black powder stuff seems to pile up over time.

If say my brother came to me and said he WANTED TO HUNT BLACK POWDER THIS YEAR, and didn't want to use my back up gun/WANTED TO BUY HIS OWN for hunting then I would probably steer him towards something cheap and easy like

A cva wolf. I prefer stainless, short and light and tool less breech makes it easy to empty or verify empty, and cleaning is easy. Drawback, short barrel means less speed, and mine is less accurate than my longer barrel rifle.

Some flavour of black powder pellets. Just for ease of getting into it. Pros you don't need funnels and measures and very straightforward. Downside is you don't have ability to "tune" tour load.

And bullets. This is going to be the worst part. Same as 22, your gun will have its own preference on bullet weight, diameter and sabot diameter,/size (ussually designated by colour) I would start with 250g hornadys, can hunt right away, and they're cheapest, so you'll get a bit more practice in. My one gun hates them though, shoots 8 inch groups. Swapped the sabot with another I had on hand, and those bullets went to ~3 inch groups. Big difference.

After getting comfortable with the basics, I (and probably most guys) have several part boxes of different bullets, as well as different powder pellets or loose powders to fine tune your accuracy or velocity.

If you're leaning towards shooting or.. becoming a conniseur.. then you need to get around it and decide what you like. I have a buddy that prefers cap locks and flint locks (flinters ARE FUN) but to me these guns are less practical for hunting. Harder to clean, "less reliable" and harder to shoot accurately. Also tend to look like classic muzzle loaders and a scope would look oit of place. And many shoot patched round balls, which can mean buying a box of balls, or falling down the rabbit hole and casting your own with everything that entails.

I guess, get around the people who are doing what you want to do, give them all a try, and start accumulating stuff. And with black powder, there will be lots of stuff.
 
Licensed to kill said:
You can't really "choose" between a patched round ball and a R.E.A.L bullet, the rifle will make the choice for you as the ideal twist for a round ball is too slow for a bullet (even the R.E.A.L which is relatively short) and the ideal twist for a bullet is too fast for a RB so it is best to decide what projectile you want to use then buy a gun rifled accordingly.
Click to expand...

While theoretically true; practically, I can't find a discernible difference in accuracy between the two. The R.E.A.L weighs about 1.5x's that of a ball, and a Minne is about twice that of a ball if I recall properly. While there is a discernment between a Minnie and a PRB, I was pleasantly surprised to find the R.E.A.L to ballistically match a PRB with the added benefit of ease of loading, and fouling clearance every shot. YMMV?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom