AutoTrickler V4
- Thread starter Holley
- Start date
I only had a months wait and it seems like there may be zero wait at the moment with the autotrickler. I also seriously entertained the supertrickler. I think they are very similar products. What mainly swayed me was being able to support the Canadian product and secondly the autotrickler ends up being cheaper close $400-500 depending on the U$ exchange rate. The autotrickler app is simple and slick so I see no advantage to additional control LCD screen/electronics that ultimately are just another future failure point.
I'm always puzzled by the interest in the gadgetry of automated powder dispensing systems based around such an inaccurate scale. Sure its accurate compared to a beam scale or any single decimal point digital scale but the 2 decimal place scales are not as precise as a good 3 decimal place scale.
The point being that people are confused about the accuracy of the dispensed load as compared to the dollars spent.
For the cost of the 2 decimal place scale plus auto trickler, you could have purchased a 10 x more accurate 3 decimal place scale and had the ultimate in load consistency.
Why spend so much money to get so little when you could have had so much more?
And another point... Lots of guys over the years have argued against weight sorting primers because they tried it and found no difference... Upon close examination, they found no difference because the 1 or 2 decimal place scale used was incapable of reliably detecting the difference needed. They were not sorting primers by weight. They we sorting primers according to the error displayed by their cheap scale, That is not weight sorting.
My advice is to forget about the useless convenience factor of automation and just get a proper lab grade analytical balance that can actually measure to 0.002 grains reliably and get the internal calibration.
Stop spending your money on the gadgetry and get yourself some real usefulness that you can rely upon.
https://www.scalesgalore.com/M1/ViBRA-HT224-2HT4S220121-Analytical-Laboratory-Prime-Balance-220-g-x-01-mg-px49230.cfm
https://www.torbalscales.com/analytical.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAkKqsBhC3ARIsAEEjuJhYElsL99USXsFu6jEXy9F6APTIQk7Q6EMcqe8I4gM-l4CnMh6zygMaAsK3EALw_wcB
The point being that people are confused about the accuracy of the dispensed load as compared to the dollars spent.
For the cost of the 2 decimal place scale plus auto trickler, you could have purchased a 10 x more accurate 3 decimal place scale and had the ultimate in load consistency.
Why spend so much money to get so little when you could have had so much more?
And another point... Lots of guys over the years have argued against weight sorting primers because they tried it and found no difference... Upon close examination, they found no difference because the 1 or 2 decimal place scale used was incapable of reliably detecting the difference needed. They were not sorting primers by weight. They we sorting primers according to the error displayed by their cheap scale, That is not weight sorting.
My advice is to forget about the useless convenience factor of automation and just get a proper lab grade analytical balance that can actually measure to 0.002 grains reliably and get the internal calibration.
Stop spending your money on the gadgetry and get yourself some real usefulness that you can rely upon.
https://www.scalesgalore.com/M1/ViBRA-HT224-2HT4S220121-Analytical-Laboratory-Prime-Balance-220-g-x-01-mg-px49230.cfm
https://www.torbalscales.com/analytical.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAkKqsBhC3ARIsAEEjuJhYElsL99USXsFu6jEXy9F6APTIQk7Q6EMcqe8I4gM-l4CnMh6zygMaAsK3EALw_wcB
Interesting. From a quick look at the specs, the fx120i that all current systems rely on has a resolution of 120g x 0.001g. Compare with the 120g x 0.0001g scales that you linked to. I suppose my response would be two things, though I haven't tried them.
1. The 0.001g resolution already is very close to resolving a single kernel of powder. I'm not quite sure if a kernel of common stick powder is slightly more or slightly less, but it is approximately 0.001g. Therefore, a 10fold increase in resolution would only occasionally achieve a 1 kernel improvement in mass consistency in a large population of charges.
2. The prices appear to be 2-3x that of the fx120i.
It is more, so unless you are going to start cutting kernels in half more resolution is not usefull.
‘Such an inaccurate scale’ might be out by a single kernel of Varget, (0.02 grains), but probably right on with heavier brands of powder.
I think my vision, fundamentals, and esp the wind is going to do so much more to move that bullet away from the bull, than this inaccurate scale will do.
I think my vision, fundamentals, and esp the wind is going to do so much more to move that bullet away from the bull, than this inaccurate scale will do.
So in addition to the sensitivity of the scale, the computer between that and the powder feed needs to gain a sense of typical kernel weight in what it's feeding so if it gets within half a kernel of the target charge it knows to stop because one more kernel would have the charge further out on the high side.
In other words, if you're 3/8ths of a kernel short, then that's the closest you're going to get because one more would put you 5/8ths over so don't do it.
In other words, if you're 3/8ths of a kernel short, then that's the closest you're going to get because one more would put you 5/8ths over so don't do it.
To appreciate my point, you have to separate the value displayed on the scale from the actual charge weight.
While a scale displays in increments of 0.02 grains, the actual weight will always be something other than that. Usually such a scale will produce loads of no better than +- 0.04 grains on a good day.
Now many of you are in denial at this point and without any basis of fact for your disbelief will reject my claim. Please feel free to ignore the following if you must.
All I can tell you is that I had a Sartorius 2 decimal place scale that is arguably better than the FX120, and after replacing that scale with the Vibra 220, I would never go back.
Now for a bit of context, why would you NOT want a better scale?
If you only shoot inside 500 yards and use large caliber rifles. At only 500 yards, the weight variation will not translate by percent to a meaningful vertical dispersion, and a large powder capacity will be less affected by the weight variance of a 2 decimal place scale.
If you are a competition shooter or just would like to load the most precise ammunition possible, you cannot get there without a good 3 decimal place scale.
As for cost, by the time you buy the 2 decimal place scale and the automation, you will be in farting distance of a good 3 decimal place scale, so cost is neglidgable.
If you want to argue convenience, the difference again is moot, because you can use a powder thrower to get close, then an old school hand operated trickler to refine the load, plus a pair of tweezers.
The takeaway is that if a 3 decimal place scale drifts by 0.004 grains, you are still well within 1/5th of a kernel of Varget.
When your 2 decimal place scale drifts by 0.04 you may not even know it and that is at least 2 kernels, either side of the direction of drift.
Take a look at your own loading records and review how much a charge weight change affects velocity and calculate how that velocity variance translates vertically. An average size kernel of Varget weighs about 0.02 grains, so 5 kernels is about 1/10th of a grain.
You can watch this if you're interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1T1bdJ6E0Q
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I noticed you never responded to the commenter in the video that said he was precise like you, then moved to the AutoTrickler V4 to save time. He didn’t see a drop in accuracy, nor worsening of his ES.
I truly understand your point of precision, but varying winds over long distances and a host of other things will affect accuracy too. I’d say everything else would affect the results on target more than a couple extra (or fewer) kernels of powder. Yes, it’s good to nail down what you can, but for 99.999% of us, it just isn’t going to matter.
So you are saying one vertical variable plus a second horizontal variable equals one horizontal variable? That's called denial.
As I stated earlier, the effect of load variance is exaggerated by distance, and you will see the difference in the aggregate.
I really don't care about what any loud mouth on the internet has to say when his point is factually false.
I'm not discussing the effects of wind. I'm discussing velocity variation as a result of load variance.
Load variance is one of many variables that affect long range performance. It is not the only variable.
If you are to shoot accurately at long range you have to do everything you can to reduce the effect of every variable... Again powder charge is just one.
Any person who claims that loads with a 0.1 grain weight variance will result in the same extreme spread as a load with a 0.02 grain total weight variance has no grasp of the subject.
Do your homework on the repeatable accuracy of any scale you are considering and translate that load variance to velocity spread and vertical dispersion.
The importance of this is relative to what you are trying to hit. A 3 MOA plate at 1000 yards is easy, but a 1/2 MOA V Bull in F class requires better especially when you consider the target is round and widest horizontally in the center. As rounds hit high or low within that 1/2 MOA you will leak out the corners and drop points. For load development, that 1/2 MOA V Bull becomes 1/4 MOA vertically real quick.
Will you see a difference shooting in 50 MPH wind at 1000 yards, no, but when the flags are not moving, yes you will see the difference assuming your shooting skills are there the rest of your load is dialed in, which it should be.
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I just finished watching a video of a US National champ long range BR shooter with his Fx120i scale, without draft shields, loading charges. He trickles them on a cheaper auto trickling scale, and fine tunes with tweezers on the Fx120i.
I think the majority of us peons will be fine.
I think the majority of us peons will be fine.
Have tweezered plenty of times. The og auto trickler would choke (over/under) on the VV N570 kernels. It made more sense to get it close and then manually add a kernel or two to get it bang on. N570 is basically cord wood though.I just finished watching a video of a US National champ long range BR shooter with his Fx120i scale, without draft shields, loading charges. He trickles them on a cheaper auto trickling scale, and fine tunes with tweezers on the Fx120i.
I think the majority of us peons will be fine.
Yeah, N570 is a b1tch to meter. It doesn’t matter what thrower you use. When I loaded N570 for my big magnum, I took side cutters and clipped some kernels in half. I used those pieces to fine tune on the pan.
N570 made Varget look like ball powder after those sessions.
N570 made Varget look like ball powder after those sessions.
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Haven’t seen N570. I have D4064 which is chunkier than Varget, so I can only imagine. lol!
When I was making precise (for me) ammo for my 6BR, I used tweezers too. A few times when my FX120i was showing 0.02 grains high I’d pull out a kernel and it would drop to 29.98 grains. So then I’d look for a smaller kernel in my little pile so it would read 30.00 grains.
No neck turning, being as careful as I could with tweezers, my ammo avg was 2843fps with an SD of 4.2 fps. Good enough for me.
When I was making precise (for me) ammo for my 6BR, I used tweezers too. A few times when my FX120i was showing 0.02 grains high I’d pull out a kernel and it would drop to 29.98 grains. So then I’d look for a smaller kernel in my little pile so it would read 30.00 grains.
No neck turning, being as careful as I could with tweezers, my ammo avg was 2843fps with an SD of 4.2 fps. Good enough for me.
I just finished watching a video of a US National champ long range BR shooter with his Fx120i scale, without draft shields, loading charges. He trickles them on a cheaper auto trickling scale, and fine tunes with tweezers on the Fx120i.
I think the majority of us peons will be fine.
Your champion will one day get beat by someone with a better scale. At the highest level of competition, it just takes a small edge to beat out the other guy.
If you dont shoot near the highest level, you are correct... You wont see the difference.
