Proper Bullet for WWI 7.92x57?

Fox

Fox

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Hey, I am curious as to what is the closest bullet for a WWI 7.92x57 rifle made in 1917. This is not a 0.318 gun, it looks like they used a 154gr FMJ bullet at about 2880fps from the long rifle but was it a boat tail bullet? Is there anything made now commercially that is close to the sights?

I have a bunch of surplus but it looks to all be the WWII 196gr stuff.

This is more for curiosity, if I end up getting that replacement stock from Poland I would love to reload the proper ammo for the sights.

Thanks
 
A 150gr flat base bullet would be close. If you don't mind me asking, what is the price of a Fox stock?
 
I can not help about 8x57JS, but ran into similar with USA's 30-06 - developed and used in days of relatively FAST powders only. So, breech pressures about the same as today - so that meant velocity fairly low - by today's standard. Internet full of chatter about Garand loads, etc. - this is way before that - like 50 years before. The 1906 loading for 30-06 - used in WWI - was 150 grain flat base, pointy bullet, at about 2,700 fps. Most modern people would expect that or more from 180 grain bullets, using today's powders. Is just pure guess, but likely WWI 8x57JS was similar?? In my case I wanted my load to follow the sight markings on M1917 rifle - so I thought it would be appropriate to try to duplicate those loads - not going to find those bullets, that powder or those primers any more - so mostly about getting the muzzle velocity correct. As was suggested to me on CGN, I am using flat based Hornady 150 grain bullets, "modern" primers, and IMR 3031 powder - not a powder that one would normally chose for a 30-06, any more.
 
tiriaq said:
A 150gr flat base bullet would be close. If you don't mind me asking, what is the price of a Fox stock?
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$425 USD without finishing plus shipping.

He said he can stamp it as well, but not sure what the proper stamps would be.

He said it will take 10 months, but you do not pay until it ships.

If my buddy can find the metal bits then essentially there is a full matching Kar98a with repop stock for $650 into my collection, seems like a great deal really.
 
Potashminer said:
I can not help about 8x57JS, but ran into similar with USA's 30-06 - developed and used in days of relatively FAST powders only. So, breech pressures about the same as today - so that meant velocity fairly low - by today's standard. Internet full of chatter about Garand loads, etc. - this is way before that - like 50 years before. The 1906 loading for 30-06 - used in WWI - was 150 grain flat base, pointy bullet, at about 2,700 fps. Most modern people would expect that or more from 180 grain bullets, using today's powders. Is just pure guess, but likely WWI 8x57JS was similar?? In my case I wanted my load to follow the sight markings on M1917 rifle - so I thought it would be appropriate to try to duplicate those loads - not going to find those bullets, that powder or those primers any more - so mostly about getting the muzzle velocity correct. As was suggested to me on CGN, I am using flat based Hornady 150 grain bullets, "modern" primers, and IMR 3031 powder - not a powder that one would normally chose for a 30-06, any more.
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That is exactly it, a 150gr bullet shows about the same velocity with IMR4895 with a very low pressure, not bad.

The one thing though is getting ok accuracy and matching the sights. For example, the 303 Brit there is 1 bullet, the flat base 180gr Sierra that gets close, everything else is boat tail and not accurate in my 303 rifles.
 
I expect that he has correct stamps. His stocks certainly look really good. Might be a long term project waiting for the correct bits to turn up, but probably worth it.
I was thinking a repro VK98 would be an interesting project.
 
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tiriaq said:
I expect that he has correct stamps. His stocks certainly look really good. Might be a long term project waiting for the correct bits to turn up, but probably worth it.
I was thinking a repro VK98 would be an interesting project.
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If I have the metal bits for it I think I would be an idiot not to do it, especially because he said no prepayment.

On top of that it is bedded in a parker hale sniper stock at the moment, so I can still shoot the rifle, just will not molest is.
 
I have always been under the impression that the twist rate in the 98 type rifles never changed and were calculated so they would initially be stabilizing 196 -220grain bullets with flat bases and round noses.

This was a good option, because of the powders and tech available at the time.

Somewhere along the way, it was decided that such heavy bullets were not only hard on the shooter/rifle, but were a waste of valuable resources for those in the trenches or field, for the purposes they were being used for.

As different powders became available it didn't take long for the designers to reduce the weight/recoil of the rifles, as well as enhance closer range performance.

Fox, some of these rifles have had different height front sights installed, depending on the types of ammo they were shooting.

It won't really matter, IMHO, which bullet weight you settle on as long as your front sight is the proper height.

Depending on conditions of the moment in the battlefield, the rifles had to be able to utilize whatever ammo was on hand. For most purposes in the field, that wouldn't make a lot of difference at ranges soldiers normally shoot at each other.

I see what you want to do. I would just look for a front sight that was high enough to allow shots to point of aim at the distances you intend to shoot the bullets you find are most accurate in your rifle.
 
I don't know much about the WW1 rifles but 196 grains rings a bell for some standard issued K98 rounds in 7.92x57.

I use S&B SPCE on iron sights within 150 metres with good results.
 
According to Olson 'Mauser Bolt Rifles' the 7.9mm S cartridge was adopted in 1903 - it was a 154gr (.323) bullet with a flat base and a cartridge OAL 3.17" and "about 1916 a new version with gilding metal clad steel jacket and cannelure was adopted" (also 154gr flat base) .. prior to that they were cupro-nickel clad steel jacket bullets with no cannelure. The deep cannelure was just back of where the case mouth was crimped. "the bearing portion at the rear end of the bullet was .323 diameter while the one forward of the cannelure measured .321".

The 198gr 7.9mm sS (schweres Spitzgeschoss; heavy pointed bullet) was a spitzer-boattail - specifically developed (and used almost exclusively for) machine guns until shortly before WWll when it was standardized for all rifles as well. Apparently the Germans found that the lighter 'S' cartridge did not possess the range of the French 8mm Balle D bullet in WWl which prompted the development of the sS.
 
Fox said:
That is exactly it, a 150gr bullet shows about the same velocity with IMR4895 with a very low pressure, not bad.

The one thing though is getting ok accuracy and matching the sights. For example, the 303 Brit there is 1 bullet, the flat base 180gr Sierra that gets close, everything else is boat tail and not accurate in my 303 rifles.
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For the 303, the Hornady Interlock 174 does well, and it's flat based.
 
Woodleigh bullets - I got some from Larch Valley Enterpises last week - not sure how much he has left in stock, though.

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Potashminer said:
I can not help about 8x57JS, but ran into similar with USA's 30-06 - developed and used in days of relatively FAST powders only. So, breech pressures about the same as today - so that meant velocity fairly low - by today's standard. Internet full of chatter about Garand loads, etc. - this is way before that - like 50 years before. The 1906 loading for 30-06 - used in WWI - was 150 grain flat base, pointy bullet, at about 2,700 fps. Most modern people would expect that or more from 180 grain bullets, using today's powders. Is just pure guess, but likely WWI 8x57JS was similar?? In my case I wanted my load to follow the sight markings on M1917 rifle - so I thought it would be appropriate to try to duplicate those loads - not going to find those bullets, that powder or those primers any more - so mostly about getting the muzzle velocity correct. As was suggested to me on CGN, I am using flat based Hornady 150 grain bullets, "modern" primers, and IMR 3031 powder - not a powder that one would normally chose for a 30-06, any more.
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Firstly, not a historian, and didnt stay at a holiday Inn.

Bruce Hodgedon started with recovering powder from surplus anti aircraft cannon shells. Some shells were equivalent to 4350 some 4831. Many military rifle cartridges used equivalent to bulk 4895...ish.

Both the 8x57 and 303 British extend back to the transition period from black powder, cordite. The original, #1 replacement for cordite in 303 British....aka.....303#1.....3031.

So my point is, your likely close both historically and burn rate with old cannister grade powders like 4895 or 3031. How could you ever hope to recreate it exactly? Any such bulk containers would be 100+ years old and deteriorated. Our retail available 1lb or 8lb cans are shape/chemistry/coating equivalent of those powders. They just bought it differently, by the train car load.
 
nowarningshot said:
Firstly, not a historian, and didnt stay at a holiday Inn.

Bruce Hodgedon started with recovering powder from surplus anti aircraft cannon shells. Some shells were equivalent to 4350 some 4831. Many military rifle cartridges used equivalent to bulk 4895...ish.

Both the 8x57 and 303 British extend back to the transition period from black powder, cordite. The original, #1 replacement for cordite in 303 British....aka.....303#1.....3031.

So my point is, your likely close both historically and burn rate with old cannister grade powders like 4895 or 3031. How could you ever hope to recreate it exactly? Any such bulk containers would be 100+ years old and deteriorated. Our retail available 1lb or 8lb cans are shape/chemistry/coating equivalent of those powders. They just bought it differently, by the train car load.
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For me the original point was to get a similar bullet weight and shape so that the BC is going to be similar, that way I can get close to the recorded distance markings on the sights.

Yes, IMR4895 is the most likely powder.
 
Fox said:
Not anymore, they have a 150gr Interlock, a 174gr FMJ NT and a 174gr Interlock RN, that 174gr flat base is not something they have now or have had in a while.
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Could be found on our sponsored bushiness.

8 in stock.

https://intersurplus.com/collections/bullets/products/100-pcs-303-cal-174-gr-interlock-bullets-by-hornady

52 in stock.

https://store.prophetriver.com/hornady-303-cal-174-gr-interlock-round-nose-100ct-3130/

As for matching ammo loads to sights, i've had good luck with running 196gr Sellier and bellot FMJ's (or 198gr FMJ PPU with 3031/4064/4895 to get 2500-2550 fps) out of most of my mausers. Vz 24, M48, K98k's and etc. Like bear hunter said, front sight height should tell you how your gun is shooting. For example my VZ 24 rear sight starts at 300M but shoots point of aim at 100M.
 
dgradinaru said:
Could be found on our sponsored bushiness.

8 in stock.

https://intersurplus.com/collections/bullets/products/100-pcs-303-cal-174-gr-interlock-bullets-by-hornady

52 in stock.

https://store.prophetriver.com/hornady-303-cal-174-gr-interlock-round-nose-100ct-3130/

As for matching ammo loads to sights, i've had good luck with running 196gr Sellier and bellot FMJ's (or 198gr FMJ PPU with 3031/4064/4895 to get 2500-2550 fps) out of most of my mausers. Vz 24, M48, K98k's and etc. Like bear hunter said, front sight height should tell you how your gun is shooting. For example my VZ 24 rear sight starts at 300M but shoots point of aim at 100M.
Click to expand...

Those are round nose, the Mk VII ammo was a 174gr spire point flat base, not a round nose bullet. There is only one spire point flat base at around 174gr and that is the Sierra 180gr. Hornady no longer makes a flat base spire point 180gr or anywhere near that.
 
Fox said:
Those are round nose, the Mk VII ammo was a 174gr spire point flat base, not a round nose bullet. There is only one spire point flat base at around 174gr and that is the Sierra 180gr. Hornady no longer makes a flat base spire point 180gr or anywhere near that.
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I don't remember Hornady making 174gr spire points. My old hornady manuals don't show that bullet. When were they made or discontinued?
 
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