The 1 MOA Hoax: How manufacturers have confused shooters

[kthomas]

Does a good 3 shot group tell the whole story, or do you want a couple repeatable ones before you feel confident that it has some statistical power?

One 3 shot group (even multiple) can definitely hide issues.

I once did a bullet depth seating test with RDF's, just using 3 shot groups. Shot some groups under 1/8-1/10 MOA.

However with 5 shot groups I could never get a group under 1 MOA. The bullets were too inconsistent. But that inconsistency was masked in a couple of 3 shot groups.

 

[track]

There are some real IDIOTS on this thread, like many other threads. Nit-pic with the most incoherent idiotic comments of mental retardation bull####! The three shot group is to find the point-of-impact and to adjust the sights, for the purpose of hunting, not bloody group size. Five or ten shot groups, what for?!

 

[Butcherbill]

Once your rifle is zeroed, shooting from the bench, for a hunter is just burning powder. Nothing wrong with burning powder, I love doing it, but don't kid yourself into believing it does much to increase your effectiveness on game in hunting scenarios. Having said that, I have spent the week loading 3000 rounds for various hunting rifles... so there is that. Lol.

No doubt on hunting effectiveness like you say, I just find the more you do something the better the overall gets but I’ve never found shooting offhand to be all that awkward. I tend to spend more time shooting while not on the range so I guess I shoot more from some type of field position or improvised rest than I do a bench, if I’m at the range I almost never shoot freehand unless I’m shooting pistols. Which I think helps you be a better overall shooter with a long gun.

 

[Joel]

One 3 shot group (even multiple) can definitely hide issues.

I once did a bullet depth seating test with RDF's, just using 3 shot groups. Shot some groups under 1/8-1/10 MOA.

However with 5 shot groups I could never get a group under 1 MOA. The bullets were too inconsistent. But that inconsistency was masked in a couple of 3 shot groups.

Completely understood.

Those 5 shot groups tell you a lot more about where that one particular bullet might go than one or two 3 shot groups do... You're seeing a tenfold increase in group size there and it sure ain't "the shooter can't manage a good group" lol.

There are some real IDIOTS on this thread, like many other threads. Nit-pic with the most incoherent idiotic comments of mental retardation bull####! The three shot group is to find the point-of-impact and to adjust the sights, for the purpose of hunting, not bloody group size. Five or ten shot groups, what for?!

Take a deep breath lol

 

[Weatherby Fan]

Ive zeroed hundreds of rifles at the range, many factory rifles and a lot of custom rifles, for hunting rifles you only need a 3 shot group to judge an effective accurate group, if your using a five shot group to verify zero in a hunting rifle your just wasting ammo in my humble opinion, but if you think its needed have at it,

I know lots of world class target shooters that only use 3 shot groups for load development verification of accuracy,

Backfire's Jim Harmer has some great content but also some pretty suspect nonsense, one problem I see at the range a lot when you want to verify a group for accuracy or to zero and you see guys on makeshift rests, resting on the barrel shooting, no rear rest to support and stabilize the rifle, that there's no possible way you could shoot a consistent group, never mind trying to see if your rifle meets an accuracy guarantee.

thats one thing Ive seen in many of Jims content ####ty rests.......you need to take as much of the human element out of checking for accuracy or zeroing your rifle as possible......once you have your rifle zeroed stand up and shoot off hand or take a knee and shoot, lay prone and shoot at least you know your rifles capabilities before you start fling lead in hunting scenarios.

I recently bought an Sako A7 30-06 I was going to rebarrel, picked it up on the way to gunsmiths Mitch Kendalls place, I says can you rebarrel this to 280AI....he says have you shot it...no I just picked it up, he says lets clean it and shoot it first !

we head down to his range and sure enough we start shooting it by the fourth/fifth 3 shot groups with Barnes TTSX factory 150gr and 168gr ammo it was shooting one hole groups !

When Im at the range with hunting rifles I use a Caldwell Tachdriver front bag and a V bag as a rear bag for zeroing and accuracy checks, load development, completely stable, this way I always know what the rifle is capable of.

a 3 shot group with factory barnes Vor-TX 150gr TTSX ammo

just to reconfirm the accuracy of the rifle with another 3 shot group, same factory barnes 150gr TTSX ammo, not sure a 5 shot group would tell me anything different.

 

[Buckmastr]

It would be hard to pull the barrel off that. Good shooting

 

[Pickles]

Poke the gun out the window and smack a rock about 100 m out...good enough.
I like to buy new pine car fresheners so the deer can't smell me.
Crack a Pil, grab a beerstick and through the ditch to circle the bluff.

 

[K45]

Poke the gun out the window and smack a rock about 100 m out...good enough.
I like to buy new pine car fresheners so the deer can't smell me.
Crack a Pil, grab a beerstick and through the ditch to circle the bluff.

Hopefully you have FULL Camo on or your just wasting the pine air freshener…..

 

[track]

Poke the gun out the window and smack a rock about 100 m out...good enough.
I like to buy new pine car fresheners so the deer can't smell me.
Crack a Pil, grab a beerstick and through the ditch to circle the bluff.

You gotta be from Saskatchewan!

 

[kthomas]

There are some real IDIOTS on this thread, like many other threads. Nit-pic with the most incoherent idiotic comments of mental retardation bull####! The three shot group is to find the point-of-impact and to adjust the sights, for the purpose of hunting, not bloody group size. Five or ten shot groups, what for?!

Depends on what you are trying to do.

If you are trying to do load development or figure out what factory ammo works for your rifle, 3 shot groups are not a great way to measure precision potential.

If all you want to do is make sure your rifle is sighted in, yeah, you can do that with 3 shot groups.

 

[JJ-65]

Poke the gun out the window and smack a rock about 100 m out...good enough.
I like to buy new pine car fresheners so the deer can't smell me.
Crack a Pil, grab a beerstick and through the ditch to circle the bluff.

That’s almost exactly what was happening when the world record whitetail was killed in Saskatchewan. Sans the air freshener.

 

[Sun_and_Steel_77]

Poke the gun out the window and smack a rock about 100 m out...good enough.
I like to buy new pine car fresheners so the deer can't smell me.
Crack a Pil, grab a beerstick and through the ditch to circle the bluff.

Gold Jerry!

 

[SHELL SHUCKER]

Time fer a good tune I reckon.

 

[6MT]

Very entertaining thread.

 

[PSE]

https://youtu.be/QwumAGRmz2I

The above link is a really good debate from the Hornady Podcast with ballistic engineers about the controversy concerning group sizes among shooters.

In this Podcast and the follow up it is emphasized that sufficient sample size (number of shots in the group) and the repeatability of the experiment (number of groups shot) is the proper measurement of determining how a subject rifle is grouping with the ammo selected and ability of the shooter involved. (not to be confused with zeroing in which is something else entirely)

Anything else is just speculation. It is also clear that 3 shots is a very meager sample size and doing it once is pointless.

The point is you have to get off your wallet if you really want to determine how your rifle really groups with a certain type of ammo. (Yeah I know ammo is expensive but in order to get valid results it's necessary)

The NRA standard test 5X5 (average of 5 groups of 5 shots each) is a good indicator of how well your rifle will group.

 

[Weatherby Fan]

https://youtu.be/QwumAGRmz2I

The above link is a really good debate from the Hornady Podcast with ballistic engineers about the controversy concerning group sizes among shooters.

In this Podcast and the follow up it is emphasized that sufficient sample size (number of shots in the group) and the repeatability of the experiment (number of groups shot) is the proper measurement of determining how a subject rifle is grouping with the ammo selected and ability of the shooter involved. (not to be confused with zeroing in which is something else entirely)

Anything else is just speculation. It is also clear that 3 shots is a very meager sample size and doing it once is pointless.

The point is you have to get off your wallet if you really want to determine how your rifle really groups with a certain type of ammo. (Yeah I know ammo is expensive but in order to get valid results it's necessary)

The NRA standard test 5X5 (average of 5 groups of 5 shots each) is a good indicator of how well your rifle will group.

Well I’ve watched that podcast, Hornady is in the business of making and selling bullets, if they need to shoot a 20 shot group to get data so be it…….
Im sorry but shooting a 20 round group is not practical, sensible, in some cases financially viable for folks shooting a hunting rifle, a lot of high profile world class F-Class shooters laughed at that suggestion as they’ve proven time and time again you can do it with three or five shot groups,

I’ve load developed hand loads for a 100 different rifles or more and never needed more than 3 shot groups to verify and produce consistent accurate handloads.

Alex Wheeler one of the most reputable and respected gunsmiths in the US uses 3 shot groups for zeroing, accuracy testing and load development out a 1000 yards…..go figure

 

[PSE]

Well I’ve watched that podcast, Hornady is in the business of making and selling bullets, if they need to shoot a 20 shot group to get data so be it…….
Im sorry but shooting a 20 round group is not practical, sensible, in some cases financially viable for folks shooting a hunting rifle, a lot of high profile world class F-Class shooters laughed at that suggestion as they’ve proven time and time again you can do it with three or five shot groups,

I’ve load developed hand loads for a 100 different rifles or more and never needed more than 3 shot groups to verify and produce consistent accurate handloads.

Alex Wheeler one of the most reputable and respected gunsmiths in the US uses 3 shot groups for zeroing, accuracy testing and load development out a 1000 yards…..go figure

I think you're just fooling yourself but to each his own.

I've also done extensive load development and certainly more rounds fired are more relevant data points. Nobody I know who competes seriously uses only 3 round strings for load development and I would think ballistic engineers working for a major ammo manufacturer would know more than you or me. Not everything is a conspiracy to get you to waste money on ammo especially since they presently have problems just keeping up with the current demand.

So my question is then why not just do 2 rounds instead of 3 if sample size does not mean anything?? Think of the savings! Also I had not mentioned doing 20 round groups. I simply advocated an NRA 5X5 standard - but what do they know

If you've ever taken a course in statistics and probability, it's the sample size and the repeatability that give you the most reliable data. The scientific method relies heavily on these factors but you do you.

 

[hoytcanon]

I do both... use three shot groups to rough-in my zero, and five shot groups to fine tune and prove my zero. Then I go shoot stuff.

 

[Buckmastr]

Often I shoot 5 shot groups so I can pick the best 3.

 

[Butcherbill]

I do both... use three shot groups to rough-in my zero, and five shot groups to fine tune and prove my zero. Then I go shoot stuff.

This^^^